Question About Subcontracting

SidingWindows

I have been in sales for about 6 years (selling windows and siding), and I really have been wanting to go into business for myself. I've been very successful with selling, but there are a lot of installation related questions that I'm concerned about primarily because I don't want to get screwed over.

Question #1 I'm going to have to subcontract out the window and siding jobs I sell until it's feasible to hire a full time crew. I'm curious how any of you who sub out jobs explain that to the home owner? I'm so used to selling on the fact that my company didn't use subs, that I'm totally lost as to how to sell people on the fact that it will be subbed out!

I'm going to probably make an effort to not bring that up at all, but from my experience, maybe 1 out of 3 customers ask me whether the job will be subbed regardless, because they typically don't like the idea of it. How do you guys get around this?

Question #2: Approximately how much aluminum coil stock is needed to wrap windows? I understand it really depends on the linear feet of each window, but is there a rough guide as to how many can be done on a 100' roll? I don't want to be buying more coil stock than necessary.

I've got more installation related questions that I think the professionals on this board may really be able to answer, but I'm going to post them in the appropriate catagory.

Thanks guys!

Brickie

What's wrong with subbing stuff out? GC's sub stuff out all the time.

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SidingWindows

Actually, it's a pretty serious issue for most homeowners (when dealing with windows or siding). I can't tell you how many jobs I have sold because they did not like the fact that the other estimate they had gotten included subcontracted installation. I'm pretty sure that the biggest issues they have are that the installer won't care as much because it's not his company selling the work; and the homeowner may ask themselves why they don't just go to a small contractor who does his own work and not pay a 'middleman'.

Tom Struble

most of the guys i subed for just lied

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Tom

KentWhitten

The reason you are struggling is that you have no faith or confidence in the integrity of subcontractors. I am friends with many subcontractors and I am proud to bring them to the table as members of my group. They are fast, efficient, loyal, respectable, responsible, accountable and deserve everything that they work for.

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If you correct your mind, the rest of your life will fall into place ~Lao Tzu

Custom Cabinetry - Portland, Cape Elizabeth, Scarborough, Kennebunkport, Yarmouth, Falmouth, Cumberland, Ogunquit, Maine

Salmon Falls Cabinetry

Brickie

Maybe it is in your neck of the woods, but it's not the case here. I rarely have a HO ask if I'm using any subs. The subs that I use do quality work. That's why I continue use them.

__________________
“Ron Paul is one of the outstanding leaders fighting for a stronger national defense. As a former Air Force officer, he knows well the needs of our armed forces, and he always puts them first. We need to keep him fighting for our country.” – Ronald Reagan

SidingWindows

toms, It would be really ideal to have a relationship with a sub who didn't express that he was a sub.

framerman, to be honest I'd really prefer to have a long term business relationship with a great sub, I just know that where I live most people really view it as a negative thing, regardless as to how confident I could be about their work. For a company who focuses solely on windows and siding, I think many homeowners here would find it very odd and suspicious as to why I don't have our own installers.

brick, I guess it must be a regional thing, you're probably right. It doesn't help that there are a few large window and siding companies that hammer every two minutes on tv about how they don't sub anything out.

Kevin M.

One issue that comes up quite often is who will be responsible for a problem? If I buy windows from your company and you install them, you are 100% responsible. If I buy windows from you and a subcontractor installs them, if a problem develops, who is responsible? Is it a product issue or install issue?

I think that is why people are concerned with the issue. Of course, If the window is a quality product installed correctly, everyone is happy. But in the real world that is not always the case.

WiaW

If you have been selling for a while, why don't you know how much trim stock to use? You must have included this in the price for a job?. From expereince you learn this. It all depends on what the client wants. I can do what ever they want, be it just a simple 'U' to cover it all, or put brick mould profiles to stay within the look of the home. I never sub work that I know I can do better than a sub. If it is some thing that I know I can't do well, I will sub. For the most part I am on the job at every job, even if subs are there. I find my clients find this very important.Good luck with your venture.

KentWhitten

Look....I'm not looking for an argument tonight, but why would you want a sub who kept quiet about the truth? That to me is being dishonest. Be up front, be proud, tell the client why with confidence. There are just as many good reasons to hire a sub as there is to have employees. And there are just as many good reasons to have employees over subs.

It's not the clients, it's not the people, it's not the location....it's your belief in what people think, it is solely your point of view.

__________________
If you correct your mind, the rest of your life will fall into place ~Lao Tzu

Custom Cabinetry - Portland, Cape Elizabeth, Scarborough, Kennebunkport, Yarmouth, Falmouth, Cumberland, Ogunquit, Maine

Salmon Falls Cabinetry

KennMacMoragh

I don't see why you even have to bring that up with the homeowner. When I bid jobs, I say I'll do this for this much. Whether I do it myself, hire subs, or use employees is my business. No matter who does the work, I will be there to overlook everything and make sure the job gets done right regardless. That's the G.C's job isn't it?

SidingWindows

kevin, thanks for understanding my concern in part. Actually it's not so much my concern as it is the home owners.

mike, when you are a salesperson typically you don't learn much about actual installation, that's left to the installers. I have zero clue how to use a brake, but I do understand that it is dependent on the width of the area needed to cover. I have always priced capping at $95 materials and labor. Now that I'm going into business on my own, I need to know how much coil stock it actually takes, within reason. I like how you make it an effort to show up while your subs are there.

framerman, yeah I agree, I really don't want to argue, I'm really just looking for encouragement that it's ok to sub things out! I never did say I wanted to lie about subcontracting, I just said it would be ideal if they would express that they aren't a sub. If my company is "Specialized Window Company" and a guy shows up to install saying "Hi, I'm bob from 'Big Bob's Contracting" with signs plastered all over his truck saying his company, the homeowner may wonder what's going on. I'm just trying to avoid any potential problems before they start. Maybe it would help if you could suggest some good phrases to explain why I subcontract? I'm totally lost to that part, which is why I started this thread.

WiaW

Kenn, this is right and how most is done.

katoman

Just tell the HO that you bring in the necessary professionals, as needed, and dependant on the job requirements.

Example - siding expert, eavetroughing expert, carpentry expert, etc. etc.

This should make the HO feel at ease, and gain confidence in your abilities to bring in the 'right' people for the job.

SidingWindows

kenn, I wish it were that simple in my situation but it's not. I don't plan to bring up the fact that I subcontract at all, but if the homeowner asks me (which they do very often) I have to answer the truth. I spend about an hour and half at each customers home, so a lot of information get's covered, it's not just "here's what I'll do it for."

WiaW

SidingWindows, You are in a position that could give you an advantage over the other guy. You have knowledge on the sales side(I can't sell, to save myself) that will help you. You have to go out with some of the crews that install what you sell, and learn the insides of the job. You are starting up in a business that is well down on need and want, due to the economy. I don't want to put you off, but if you are doing well in sales? maybe stay there and go out and learn what the guys in the feild do, so as to get some understanding.

katoman

I do a little work for a local lumber chain, that will install anything they sell. The HO knows in advance that whomever comes to do the install is a sub.

They buy from the lumber company knowing this, are assured quality because the company stands behing it, and it's convenient. The lumber company has already done the research into who is qualified and who is not.

So the HO knows, or can be informed that there are no 'hacks' working for you. Turn this into a positive instead of a negative.

Kevin M.

good advice.

SidingWindows

kato, I think that works better for people who contact a general contractor. Reputations in that field i'm sure depend on the quality of subs they use, because the work reflects on them. The problem is that I am not starting a company that does any work other than siding or windows.

Let's say you need masonry work done, but the company that is showing you samples and estimating, doesn't do the work. When you ask who does the work, and they say "Jim's Masonry", wouldn't you wonder why you can't just contact Jim's masonry?

A window guy who's business is slow wants to sub for me, and I really get along well with him, but his website says "Double Hungs Installed $325 tax credit eligible." Now if the customer looks my sub up on the internet, and sees that, when they paid $550 to me, they are going to be upset.

katoman

I can't say about your area, but around me siding guys who sub generaly just sub. They don't sell their own product.

Look for these types of subs. There are lots of guys who just want to do the work, and not have all the hassles of running a business.

Also, as others have mentioned, it is imperative you learn the aspects of the trade. I'm not saying you need to be able to do it, but if the HO happens to know a little about some of the aspects of the job, you need to be knowledgeable to answer their questions.

And don't forget, there's an old saying that your subs will make or break you. Very true. Find some good people.