frank1123

Hello - I am working on a small commercial construction project of about $250,000 in NYC, and I have asked 4 general contractors for bids. One of the general contractors has not given me costs of every item - only the lump sum cost of the entire project, and she won't give me that information. All I have from her is a list of all the items to be completed, and a lump cost.

Is this a cause for alarm? Why would a contractor not want to provide that further information. To me, that makes it hard to understand what I'm paying for, even though her numbers are about teh same as other contractors' numbers that have been fully itemized.

Thanks for your input - Frank

J F

Hey Frank,

How does that make it hard to understand what you're paying for? You have a list of what you are paying for, just not itemized.

I realize commercial may be quite a bit different from residential, but don't give a line item for every single thing, that's our business what we pay for whatever.

Most times, it's looked at as a way for a prospective client to try to beat you up on any one of a thousand items. It can be tiring. Do you want us to do the work or not?

Just my opinion.

J

J F

Are you in the industry, or the owner?

J

concretemasonry

I assume you are asking them to submit prices for project with a plan and specifications. If that is the case they way the contractor calculates or prices out the indiviual itmes should be of no importance and will depend on his assesment of the project, the materials, how he accomplished the works and what his costs. The contractor has no obligation to provide the internal calculations needed for him to come up with a price.

You are buying a project to your specifications and not individual itmes.

If you want more detail, ask for it in the proposal documents. This is especially true if you expect unknowns.

If I were a contractor and a customer wanted line item pricing, I would be very suspicious and possibly skew the pricing for the individual items so that those modified are subject to change order charges. - This is what happens when you try to get too cheap and be a line item buyer.

__________________
Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

frank1123

Hi J,

Thanks for the reply. I'm the owner. I have done other large construction projects over 1M, but this one's a bit smaller, and I want to get some construction industry perspective on this.

You're right, I know what I'm paying for ... but not having costs associated with each item seems to worry me a bit. I don't know, I'm not trying to get the numbers down to the nails, but other contractors are providing that to me, and this one is not. She is very nice, seems to be a fantastic contractor, very respected - she's done many projects of the sort for my industry. I just don't know if this would raise an alarm that she won't give me the information.

frank1123

Hello concretemasonry

Thanks for the post - I wanted to get another perspective, and you gave it to me - that makes sense.

BuiltByMAC

I always go get advice when I downsize my jobs...
See that stuff in bold? Yah, I'd run screaming...
when you hire a contractor, you can speak to their references. Do your homework, you'll be fine.

Mac

J F

Yeah Frank, none of us likes to drop our drawers in front of prospective clients (well, there was that one time...)

It just seems to open up all sorts of different cans o' worms.

"...I can get second hand 2 x 4's for 3 cents less than that"

"...your plumber is very expensive...my nephew's cousin's aunt only charges half that...and she's almost licensed."

"Is THIS your mark up???" (as I'm having to pick the client up off the floor and dialing 911...yeah, that 2% sure is a killer

Now granted all the above situations are tons of fun, but ....you get the picture (and I'm sure you wouldn't be pullin' any of that crap)

J

Double-A

Frank,

Owner of what? This site is for folks in the trade, I'm trying to fit you into that category, and the trade of 'commercial' you have listed is sorta, well, obviously open ended. Please tell us about yourself and your business.

__________________
"My clients’ wishes are the center of my attention." -- David Guido, a contractor in Woodstock, N.Y.
New York Times, July 20, 2006

kevjob

2 peopl see the line items, me the owner and my tax guy. Now that being said if I don't have specs on model numbers fixture color styles etc.. I give the model number in detail but no amounts ever. That question is a red flag for us.

__________________
Kevin
Highlands Ranch Co, bathroom remodeling
Aurora Co, Bathroom Remodeling
Kitchen Remodeling Denver

Tscarborough

Drawings and specifications. That is what they are for. If you provide a complete and accurate set, your costs will be lower, AND you won't NEED a line item breakdown, since you have already provided yourself with a list of all required items, methods of construction, and applicable standards.

Qualify your contractors in the bid documents, do your due diligence, and let them do what they do best after contract signing.

__________________
It ain't Rocket Science unless you are building rockets.

KillerToiletSpider

If you hold your breath waiting for me to give you an itemized bid you will die from lack of oxygen.

__________________
"Being a White Sox fan frees a man from any other pennance" Bill Veeck.

john5mt

Its already been said but everyone who has made the mistake of line iteming a bid has gone through the whole situation of having the customer changing things after signing the contract because they can get it cheaper at home depot or some other place. If you have a contract with how many, what color, where, when, and how ; for x dollars installed, thats all you need to know and have. You don't need to know what they pay for things, what their mark up is, etc. All you need to know is what you're getting for how much and then decide if you're willing to pay the price or not.

__________________
1st Gen tradesman
My summer job in college became my profession

AtlanticWBConst

It appears that the OP is not a contractor. They are the equivalant of a property owner, or a developer. Whether they are allowed to post on this site, or not, is up to the mods to correct, or leave.

Personally, I do not know anyone in the industry, that "itemizes" their BIDS. We refuse to itemize BIDS. The reasons are below.

(The closest we come to itemization, is when we may separate the costs of the overall project into it's different phases, or "areas" of work)

As Concrete Masonry stated, it's almost "insulting" for any client to request a detailed materials list during the initial bidding process. That is their private company information. Itemization of materials is a "take-off". General Contractors should not have to provide their take-off amounts, EVER, during the Bidding process, unless it is a pre-determined time and materials type contract.

If you, as the owner, want the totals of the assumed materials, then it's time to learn how to start reading plans, and figure it out yourself. If you can't do this, then it's it's time to pay someone, or a take-off service, to do it for your.

To demand that this be provided at the inital bidding phase is just, plain, flat-out WRONG.

The only time that this may develop, is when there are several bids, on a large project, that are very different in their overall numbers. Again, it is up to the Owner to figure out, on their own, - if there were mistakes in each company's materials take-off calculations.

__________________
- Build Well -

woodchuck2

Like said above your opening up a can of worms. If the information is detailed then the bidder will be criticised for the make, model and cost of each peice and part that was put in the bid or the amount charged for labor. An example from my stand point is for new construction wiring i charge by the box, the owner doesnt know what type of box, type or quantity of wire or how long it takes me to install said box. It will cost the homeowner the same money for me to install one box 4' from the service panel as it would to install one box in the attic of a three story home 75' from the service panel. Big difference in time and cost of materials, but same price per box. I myself dont always go with the lowest bid either, a bidder may be just be a cutthroat trying to get work, i prefer someone dependable with a good reputation and i will certainly pay more for that.

BuiltByMAC

Still waitin' on that bio, Frank... Frank? [sound of OP fleeing...]

Mac

Susan Betz

What he said. Wish I'd said it.

__________________
Fences of Distinction, Ocala, FL
http://www.fencesofdistinction.com

mahlere

flipside....might be leary of a contractor who readily supplies this information...could indicate lack of experience....

MarkNoV

Yes, there is cause for alarm.

She is smarter than the average contractor. In addition, given her reputation, you probably need her more than she needs you.


Mark

Thomp

I have asked 4 general contractors for bids

There you have it. Take the contractor with the middle bid. How they got it is not your concern.