lxdollarsxl

Political figures no matter what party are out for one thing and one thing only, to line thier own pockets. Its the same in this country.

As for saying he is the best since 1940, well none of them got any better and ive seen em come and go since i was a boy back in the 50's, i defy you to name one thing that any of them has done for the general population. Business's under all the governments has got harder to keep profitable. Taxes go on rising, and for what? for you and i to tread water. sorry know its off topic.

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Mike Finley

He stood tall and proud with us when the chips were down, that's all I care about.

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bathroom remodeling - Denver, Lakewood, Littleton, Arvada, Westminster, Centennial, Highlands Ranch, Lone Tree, Englewood Colorado.

graniteguy

I have been in the granite countertop field for over 15 years and have heard every excuse why the cabinets are not installed level and sound.
The floor was out so use some shims, at some point the surface needs to be level for the countertops. I can make it level and you will see gaps between the cabinets and the countertops instead of at the floor.
You are installing cabinets use some screws, properly installed cabinets will not buckle from the weight of the granite. Most importantly learn how to read a good level. There is nothing more comical than a "cabinet installer" using a crapy 2' level. Go get a set of nice levels the longer the better.
In my opinion if there is no contractor involved on the job and the cabinets are existing they should be check by the granite guy at the time of template. If anything is found that may need some attention the home owner should be give the option to fix it by the time of installation of the granite. If there is a contractor running the job it is his responsibility to make sure the cabinets are installed properly that is why you are getting a check. Granite may vary in thicknes +-1/8 through out a slab and when I install granite countertops I go for flat not level. If seams are involved in the installation there may be gaps between the cabinets and granite if the cabinets are not level. I have seen cabinets out of level over 1/2" from one end of the kitchen to the other installed by a "cabinet installer". It is not my job to babysit the installation of the cabinets I am not getting paid to. It is my job to install the granite so it is sound it helps if the cabinets are level but that is why they make shims. It is a little late if the cabinets are not level at the time of countertop installation. Once the granite is in it is a pain and very risky to remove. Who is to pay for any damage to the granite do to wacked out cabinets or my wasted time.There are contractors I really like to work with and then you get the ones that want to play the blame game. You install the cabinets level and the countertops will more than likely be level you throw in the cabinets guess what the countertops will not be level and I will use a cedar tree worth of shims to make the countertops "Flat"
As for drain grooves they are mostly cosmetic and are of no use. A slanted or sloped drain board is better but takes away from using that part of the countertop as a flat surface. I always try and talk customers out of either once it is cut in to the stone you can not change it. The drain area could be modified on site but it would be a dusty and wet mess. I really do not care what they did years ago I myself can do stone work by hand but that is not how things are done now and I know the homeowner will not like the mess involved with the on site modification.
The price of granite has dropped in the past couple of years due to the use of automated machines used in fabrication. That has also cut out most of the hand craftmanship of granite countertops and forced the true "granite guys" out of the field. I am not saying there are not any craftsmen left but you need to find out who you are working with.

john elliott

So I'm guessing you are finding in favour of the granite guy on this occasion?

I'm also wondering if there could possibly be any bias, are you involved with granite installation

Nice piece of archaeology, by the way. This thread isn't quite as old as granite itself, but at nearly 3 years, it's getting there.

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Ed the Roofer said "John too, in his crass and blunt demeanor.............."

framerman

Something you might want to think about graniteguy, since you've been at this awhile and have seen everything as you say, why would you compound the problem if the cabinets are out of level? Don't install if it is a bad cabinet install. A simple check with your level before you even start to take tops out of the truck would minimize fingerpointing and "now what's".

If you need to charge for it then charge for it. Don't compound the problem. You would be the problem IMO if you used a treefull of shims to level your top.

The initial liability is the HO. If the HO hires a contractor then liability falls to the contractor. If the contractor hires a separate cabinet installer and countertop installer, which is the norm, the cabinet installer responsibility is to install level within a decent tolerance. If it's not and the countertop installer says F it, then the major problem ATM is the countertop installer.

Your paperwork, I would assume, states to the HO that the cabinets need to be level. And if a return is necessary then there will be a trip charge, no?

If it does and you install it anyway, then your actions state just how much you don't give a rats ass.

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Leo G

If the cabinets wer out of level by 1/2" over the install why didn't you just follow the cabinet? It would be silly to shim it a 1/2". If the client complains the statement is easy - the countertops follow the cabinets, I can shim +/- 1/8". I have been in houses that the floor is out by 4". If you do a level install it looks out of place. WHat then? Are you going to level the tops?

Most of my installs would be hard to be out of level, the run of cabinets is usually only 2 or 3 cabinets, long ones.

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RizzoMaryland

I have yet to meet a granite installer (not company) that actually gave a damn when nobody was looking.

Talk about babysitting.

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greg24k

I totaly agree with Leo and Framerman, If the floor or wall is not level, the cabinet install must be leveled. If a granite contractor comes to do an install and his top will have a back pitch problem or any other leveling problems which exceed allowable tolerances and will require over the board shimming, he should not install the top and have a cabinet installer do necessary adjustments. I believe OP mentioned that he thinks the problem occurred when granite top was placed on the cabinet, the cabinet could have moved, and that is just another indication of improper install.
Just another job where someone was looking for that fat check at the end of the job, instead of paying attention to what they're doing. If people would be more concerned with providing quality to theirs customers and doing a good job the right way, because they put theirs name on that job... none of this s^*t would be happening.

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john elliott

I'm guessing that you haven't read the entire thread.

In any case, it may well be that the cabinets did move, although unlikely due to their being made of 18mm birch ply, with each cabinet, an average of 24" wide, having two sides, and each cabinet is screwed to its neighbour. Each of the cabinets has 4 adjustable feet.

It's a shame that I said that the cabinet may have moved during the granite install because it distract attention from the real problem, which was failure in managing the customer's expectations.

If the cabinet did move, it could only be that the floor on which it was placed moved. Were that to happen there really woudn't be anything I could have done about it.

Having had a quick read through of the thread I am reminded that people tend to assume that granite as supplied is flat and that the top and bottom faces are parallel. Neither of these is true, and that is why installers need to shim to get joints as level as possible

John

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Ed the Roofer said "John too, in his crass and blunt demeanor.............."

Gus Dering

Did the granite guy leave his level in the truck when he made the template?

This happened 3 years ago when the world was listing to the right. Last I looked it is swinging back towards the middle / left. Anyone think of that?

neolitic

So, John, aren't you going
to finish the thread for us?
What was the fix?
Did everyone live happily ever after?

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greg24k

John, I understand these things perfectly well. But you as a contractor know as well as I do, who is responsible for the job. HO hires a professional contractor to do work on theirs homes. It is his job to make everything right.

If a tile guy installs tile and grout starts to fall out because of the lose sub-floor, it is his responsibility to make sure sub-floor is installed properly prior him doing any work. If a paving contractor installs pavement and it cracks, it is his responsibility to compact the stone and allow the settlement prior him paving. Same goes for every other trade. So it don't matter, if the floor went, or the cabinet went or the granite went, the person installing the cabinets, responsible for the cabinets to be stable and free of movement, and the person installing the granite responsible for the tops.
If HO was notified, there is a problem with the floor, the floor needs to be fixed before we could install cabinets, then it will be a different story. Now there is a situation where cabinet guy blames the floor, the counter guy blames the cabinets, and the person who is responsible will end up paying to do everything possible to rectify the problem. Unless he can BS his way out of that situation, then HO will be pissed, file a lawsuit and so forth.

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greg24k

Gus, I am swinging thoughts the end and I am also curious what ever happened with this job? Who picked up the tab?

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john elliott

Greg, when you are quoting it's best to put the quote at the start, that way other readers read the quote first, and can then read your comments in the intended context.


Anyway, like I said before, I don't think you've read the entire thread, have you? I'm not saying you should read it before making comments, just that if you did your comments would have more value.

As for what you have actually said, what be your approach to checking the floor of a 300-year old house that had been tiled probably 50 years ago? This house, like most English houses, has no basement and is constructed from masonry.

John

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Ed the Roofer said "John too, in his crass and blunt demeanor.............."

john elliott

To answer the question of 'who picked up the tab?', nobody. I think she came to realise that the problem she was complaining about was not curable, that until she changed the way she was using it, the problem would not go away, either on the granite top in question, or any possible replacement

John

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Ed the Roofer said "John too, in his crass and blunt demeanor.............."

greg24k

I am glad everything worked out on that job. To answer your question- What I do if it is a 300 year old house? I do the same I would do in a 30 year old house. If its a kitchen remodeling first thing I will do is go down to the basement if there is one. If there is no basement, I will evaluate current conditions of floors, walls, existing kitchen,etc and I will discuss all my concern with my customer and I will have it in writing as a note section added to my proposal and my contract...So if there is a problem in the future, there is no "I told you" "He told me not" There will also be a section stating any unforeseen situations or conditions will be subject to extra cost for labor an material above the price of the contract.
This way when I start the job, and I remove existing cabinets and I see the floor out of whack, or the floor been sagging 1/4" a year for the past 30 yrs or so, I will tell the HO, that we have to rectify this before we install the cabinets. If a HO says it is to much money, I did not expect this, do the best you can...I will have them sign a waver, stating they been notified of the problem and I will not be held responsible. I have been doing this for the past 20 years, and I keep adding new things as I learn, because HO can be very funny people and very at the same time when it comes to final payments. Thank god I have only met 2 in almost 30 years of doing this, but same rule applies to all, and the 2 who I have met, they where the nicest people you could meet, and after the job was done, they turned out to be the most evil people I ever met. I came out ahead in the end, but it was the most stressful experience, lasting with one 6 months and the other 2 months.

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wellbuilthome

I agree with mike . but my granite guys in stole level no matter what, if my cabinet are out of whack ill get a phone call . If they cant reach me they will shim the top level . I'm always on site when the granite gos in .

Mike Finley

So I take you never went to address this problem with your customer and see if the cabinets were indeed level or not? Surely that's not the case is it?

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naptown CR

i think it was addressed however there was no reasonable solution. How do you resolve an owners mis use or misconception of what appears to be a problem and is actually not a problem.