My Fault Or The Granite Guy's?

copusbuilder

Perhaps you need to go out and show him. Let me know when so I can bring the camcorder

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john elliott

So, I went to see the problem for myself this morning, and very interesting it was too.

There seem to be two main problems-

1st problem is that the granite itself is not perfectly flat. I noticed that placing my level on various parts of the same (large) slab produced slightly different results

2nd problem is much worse, and it revolves around the way the HO is using the draining area. When she washes pans etc in the sink she places them on a draining rack which itself is placed on the draining area. The water that drips off and does not happen to drop into one of the draining grooves forms a puddle which then evaporates and leaves behind the calcium which it contained.
Her position is that this shouldn't happen, and that the water should make its own way into the sink. As all contractors know, water runs downhill, and if it's on a level surface, which the draing area virtually is, will stay where it is.
What we have here is really a failure to manage the customer's expectations. At the time of ordering, the granite guy should have offered her the choice of a 'dropped drainer' (as discussed above) at extra cost, and explained to her that drainer slots are mostly cosmetic, and will only deal with the water which actually enters them.
This is going to be a difficult problem to solve, as so far our hints that mopping the water up before it dries out have bounced off her. As far as she is concerned, it is a draining area and it should therefore drain.
I've left her to consider a part refund, as the option of removing the granite and re-installing it with a slope is one that nobody involved wants to have happen

In the meantime I will have to do what I can to stop this happening again, but it is tricky to anticipate every possible problem that might crop up

Thanks for the suggestions, BTW, especially the humourous ones about cutting a dropped drainer on site

John

Mike Finley

How about telling her she needs to treat her water to get rid of the calcium?

Water has a natural tension to it, it won't run down every hill unless the hill is steap enough to break the natural tension.

It sounds to me if you leveled the cabs then this one is in the installers lap. But from the sounds of it you are in a delicate situation with him because he has you by the nads so to speak over you need him more than he needs you. Sounds like you are going to have to do some soul searching on how to handle it the best way for the long run.

Mike Finley

How do you check the level of the cabinets by checking the level of the slab? I've seen plenty of shims under level granite slabs set over unlevel cabinets. Checking level on those slabs would show them level but not show you that the cabinets underneath were unlevel.

It's also possible that a perfectly leveled set of cabinets can be made unlevel by the granite installer or anyone else. I've seen it on tear outs where the old cabinets were made level and figured done and ready for the install, but they forgot or didn't know that they needed blocking behind open cabinets and corners against the wall to support the weight of granite. I've then seen that blocking put in wrong and throw the level off. The only thing is if the slab installer gets to the job and discovers no blocking, they should be the last person you would expect to install it incorrectly.

Mike Finley

Yep.

C.C.R.

Hey john, hate to bum you out but Paledu is right. If the granite isn't level on your cabinets that you leveled, shimmed, and secured properly. Then its your fault and your problem. If the granit made your cabinets move then they weren't secured properly. Unless the granit is going over old cabinets his responsibility is to cut and lay the granite on the cabinets that's it. If your cabinets are level then you say to the H.O. and the granite guy, " good luck and have a nice day".
As far as splitting anything 50/50 (in most cases) it's either your fault or his fault. Why should you pay for his mistake and likewise why should he pay for yours.

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Shanklesbuilder

I'm with Peladu. You put a level on the granite parallel with the way it should drain. If it is level it is his fault, but if it is out of level then it is your fault.

Leo G

The way some guys/companies are making their cabinets now it is possible for the granite to move/break the cabinets. I know a lot of cabinet makers that no longer have the sides of the cabinets come down to the floor. They make a toe kick section and this goes down first. It is leveled then screwed to the floor. The cabinets are then installed on top of this. This lets them get three sides of a cabinet out of an 8' sheet of plywood instead of the normal 2. It is a big savings to the cabinet shop. Depending on the joint that they use on the bottom of the cabinet determines the strength of the unit. They can dado, screw, pocket screw, conformat screw or biscuit and glue. Anyone of these makes a good looking cabinet. Only the dado and the biscuit make a cabinet strong enough to not move at all. Also is the base of the cabinet made from 3/4" or 1/2". 1/2" can bend under the weight of the granite. So, the cabinets could indeed be installed level and plumb. But the weight of the granite CAN affect the levelness. I've seen it happen.

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Peladu

My short answer to this is that a true "prosessional" would have those cabinets installed correctly in the first place. But Mike, you do make an excellent point.

Peladu

Cabinets should be installed correctly before the granite installer even shows up to the job. If I go to a house and see the granite shimmed here and there it could only means a few things things to me..**** cabinets, or the carpenter was lazy is a couple of them. But the granite guy is trying to protect his product by doing the shimming...but basically, the carpenter is lazy or inexperienced seems to be the root to it.
I say there really should be no reason for the granite guy to have to level or shim anything. That's my goal for my granite guy. It's no coincidence he gives me the kitchens that come to him.
I don't know guys, maybe I am a little picky with my trim work? I am still the only one I have seen use a laser level for kitchen cabinets on big jobs. Maybe that will tell you something about how level I want my units.

Mike Finley

Where I am from if your responsibility is to level the cabs and make them ready to accept the slabs you are also responsible for determining if the cabs need reinforcement. You have to add blocking on the walls in open backed cabs, corners and examine the strength of the cabs and see if any sistering needs to be added. The bottom line is you are supposed to do everything that needs to be done so that when the slab installer shows up all they do is install their slabs. It also is respectful to your subs, since there is always downward pressure on them to give you the best price it is a bit disrespectful to have them be giving you a price based on them getting a best case scenario install and when they get there they have to tweak and fix things because things aren't quite right. From my experience the installers we use could careless if they have to throw a shim or two into the job, but they don't want to spend 30 minutes fixing things, and I don't blame them.

Man, the more this thread goes on the more it shows just how complicated this all is. I think I need to raise my prices.

Tscarborough

"Perhaps you need to go out and show him. Let me know when so I can bring the camcorder"

Naw, perhaps I should get a breathalizer for my computer instead....

john elliott

A lot of the posters here are assuming that the granite slabs are dead flat, on both faces, and that those faces are parallel to each other and that all the slabs are exactly the same thickness- well, this just isn't the case. Granite slabs are nowhere near that perfect.

Granite installers always have to use shims to get joints level, and the thickness of shims required will often be more than would be needed to cancel out any slight discrepancy in the levelness of the cabinets

My cabinets are all equipped with adjustable feet, four each, and they are very strong. However, on a seriously uneven floor (the floor in question had been tiled with tiles of varying thickness) what can happen is that if the weight on the cabinet will have an effect on its exact position. This isn't usually a problem, and I don't think it was in this particular case either, but it was what I was suspecting on my way to visit the HO this morning

As it turned out, and as I related in post 23, the problem isn't really to do with the level of the slab at all

John

Scott Young

when i build cabinets i level them requardless of what the floor and the walls are doing. sometimes it is a real trick getting it right cause the other issues. i take full responsibility on cabinet install. i, like others, have had to deal with less than perfect situations, but we have managed to overcome the shortcomings of others to get our product in right. i have quit putting cabinets in for one specific builder cause i was having to deal with the shortcomings way too much. other cabinet guys have quit installing for him also for the same reasons.

i say all the above to say that the granite guy is responsible for the granite install. he should have dealt with your shortcomings if there was any. to go back and say well it is out of level cause the cabinets are out of level is chicken. he should have made sure the cabinets were out of level. it is not like he hasn't dealt with that problem before. if he was expecting you to do his job for him then he needed to pay you. suppose he was installing on older cabinets that the builder was already dead. what would he say then? "i am sorry that the granite is not level the orginal carpenter who built the cabinets built the wrong so call him, but too bad you can't so your outa luck."

the granite guy is passing the buck it seems. all of this is mute if you guaranteed that your cabinets would be level and they would hold the full weight of granite. but if you didn't specify that then the granite guy needed to deal with your shortcomings if he found them.

he should have shimmed if he found them out of level or he should have told the customer, "call the cabinet guy back cause i can't install my granite on these out of level boxes."

RussellF

Tell her you will provide her with a year's worth of Rain-X.......and be done with it....

Scott Young

john reading your last post, made me go back and read closer the previous posts.

is the problem that the lady thought a drain section should drain and it doesn't?

if the problem exists cause of faulty installation then it is the granite guys.

if the problem is in false advertizing then it is the sales man's.

if the problem is the design of the drain section then it is the designer's.


ultimately, if i were in you shoes, then i would take responsibility for the customers happiness. i live by word of mouth. i can't afford to get that damaged. if the granite guy doesn't fix it then call another granite company in and pay for them to fix it. and don't use the other guys again. remember you sold this job and you recommended the cheaper granite guys, and it is you that the customer will remember.

copusbuilder

Ooops,,, late night typing?

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wackman

I understand your problem now. It has nothing to do with the level of the cabinets or the slab. The customer thought it was a fully functioning drainage area and really it's more for looks with some drainage ability.

Sounds to me like this particular slab treatment needed a little more explanation and probably an offer of the drop pan for real heavy use at the time of order.

So who took the order for the slab with all the different features and options?

1. Did she say "I saw this at my girlfriends house and I want it" or was it sold to her. If the slab man just gave her what she ordered then I would say it's her problem, she didn't really check out what she was asking for.

2. If he sold it to her and didn't explain these details it could have been very misleading to her. His fault I'd say.

3. Lastly, if you sold her on this feature and the slab man just gave her what was ordered then it could be your responsibility.

What do the rest of you guys think?

Wack

john elliott

Wack has summed the situation up perfectly.

It would be mostly the granite guy's fault in this particular case, though I also missed opportunities to explain to her that it was not going to be a fully functioning draining area.

In our defence we would both say that we have done this type of flat top with drainer slots many times before and it has never been a problem before, ever.

It just goes to show how necessary it is to anticipate unexpected problems like this. We will certainly make sure that customers are offered the more expensive option of a dropped drainer in the future.

John

widco

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