john elliott

A few months ago I designed, made and installed a kitchen. A few weeks ago the HO emails to say there's a problem- water from the draining area (slots cut into the granite surface) runs away from the sink and not towards it.
I tell the granite guy and he goes and has a look, talks to the HO and then calls me to tell me there really isn't anything that can be done about it, but he will go back and polish out the marks caused by the calcium in the water, and worse still her attempts to remove those marks with lime scale remover
She emails me to tell me that she and the granite guy agree that the cabinets are not level, and is looking forward to hearing from me what is going to be done about it
I call the granite guy and he says that's not exactly what was said, but it's true that nothing can be done about it short of removing the granite whereupon it would probably be break
The way it works with my granite guy is that I get the job, and recommend him to the HO's. They make their own deal with him and pay him directly, I am in no way financially linked with him.
I don't want to fall out with him because he is cheaper, and more importantly, much faster than any of the competition. This helps me to sell more jobs because the total cost to the HO is lower, and the job is faster.
Anyway, I believe the cabinets were level before the granite was installed, but I concede that they might well have moved a small amount when the weight of the granite was placed on them. It seems to me that if this happened, then he should have checked before fixing the slabs in position, and that predominantly it's his fault for not checking.
What do you guys think?

John

mdshunk

I'd go out and see how level the boxes are. If your cabinets are level, and you've been paid, it's not your problem. The grainite guys was not your sub, you just recommended him. That's normal.

Mike Finley

It only comes down to one thing -

Who is responsible for pre-leveling the cabinets before the slabs are installed? You or him?

Cabinets have to be level before granite is installed, for obvious reasons of preventing slabs from cracking to less obvious but just as important issues of your slots. Somebody has to be responsible for leveling.

The company I use has two choices a more expensive choice where they come in and tear out of pre-existing counters, remove the sink and level the cabs, and a less expensive option where I can do all that and all they do is install the slabs. In the former they take full responsibility for the installation of the slabs, in the latter they take little responsibility.

So who is responsible for the leveling? It isn't an option, somebody has to be responsible for it.

Also, why isn't it an option to have him come out and rework those slots on site so they drain and then re-polish?

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415moto

Im agreeing with Finley up there.
If the slots are cut into the slab, why cant he slope them by recut?

Take a level and look under the cabinet into your substrate, ply im guessing and see if its level.

The slots have to be cut at a moderate slope to drain towards the sink. The cabinets have to be relatively level at least to the eye. I just dont see how the cabinets can be so off that they slope away from the sink and even with the granite guys slope to the sink, they slots are STILL sloping away from the sink. That has got to be a very noticably out of wack cabinet.

Tscarborough

One or the other's, but the bottom line is that it needs to be rectified, and it Damn sure isn't the homeowners fault.

john elliott

That would be me, and I did level the cabinets before the slabs were installed


Well, that's what I'm asking, isn't it. As far as I'm concerned, before the installation started the cabinets were level. Now, either the silicone that he beds the granite on was applied sufficiently unevenly that the slab ended up out of level, or else the cabinets reacted in some way to the weight of the granite. Either way, I wasn't there when it happened, so was not in a position to check it or to deal with it.

The slots are cut into the otherwise flat top of the granite, and the problem is where the water drops onto the flat face and not into the slots

mdshunk

I have seen drainboards that were an almost 18" wide "swale" in the granite, adn not slots. It was polished out, just like the surface. Perhaps that's a possible rework option?

john elliott

That's very true, and it will be rectified. It's not a huge problem, if it was I expect we would have heard right away. I'm going to see her tomorrow, and most likely will be offering the lady a partial refund . I've already agreed with the granite guy that we will split this 50/50.

What I'm really looking for here is not so much how to deal with the problem, which will either be by giving her a discount or by actually removing and resetting the granite, but for some other opinions on whose fault it was.

It's my feeling that it is mostly his fault because he didn't check during the installation, which was the time when the problem could have been identified and rectified, that the granite was level

John

john elliott

I believe these are normally done on a large CNC machine, so would need for the granite to be taken out and returned to the shop. The granite guy believes the granite will crack if he tries to take it out, this is due to the way this large slab, which spans several cabinets, is cut around the 'belfast' sink

John

dirt diggler

hmm, let me guess ... does Mr. Lowballer Granite Guy drive a beat up blue Oldsmobile (or Ford --- but not a Chevy cuz they never get beat up)

Mike Finley

If you leveled it then you shouldn't have an responsibility. If the responsibility for leveling was up to you, then the installer would only be responsible for doing a quick check to verify you did your job. Obviously if he then chooses to go ahead with the install then he has checked your leveling job and deemed it acceptable and is now accepting responsibility for everything that comes after.

**almost anything cut with a CNC is just doing a faster and more accurate job of what was once cut by hand. A good fabricator can usually do anything a CNC machine can do. Removal sounds a bit superfluous to me, but I don't have the luxury of seeing the job itself.

I guess I am not following you in regard to the slots. It sounds like water is pooling around the slots? If it's a flat surface around the slots what else could it do?

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john elliott

Mike
What MD is referring to is what is often called a 'dropped drainer' This is an area about 18" wide and maybe 24" long which is machined flat and is a recess in the granite, and a slight angle to the face. This would not be possible to do by hand. Maybe in marble it could be done, but not granite, which requires water-cooled diamond cutting equipment.

The water that falls between the slots isn't pooling, it runs away from the sink, and that's the essence of the problem

John

Editied to say, I've since found out that basically it is pooling, with the shape of the puddle moving slightly in the away from the sink direction, in other words, what you would expect on a virtually flat surface with an almost too small to measure slope

mdshunk

I still maintain that if you leveled these cabinets, and they are still level, my response to this customer complaint would be, "Sorry to hear that. Do you need the granite guy's phone number?"

nadonailer

You need to check and see if your cabinets are still level. if they are, then you're in the clear. If not, it could get sticky because its your word against his - but if you KNOW you left them level, stick to your guns!

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Tscarborough

Wow, John Elliot, all those craftsmen of the past 5000 years would sure be surprised to learn that what they did (in fact do) by hand required a water-cooled diamond bit. It can be fixed in place.

widco

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john elliott

Two 'T's in Elliott, please

Maybe it isn't actually impossible, but it would be vvveeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy ssssssssslllllloooooooooowwwwwwwwwww, and well outside the context of a commercial operation. It's difficult to think of a a suitable analogy, perhaps a bricklayer baking his own bricks before laying them?

John

Peladu

John honestly, I don't get it. Every kitchen I have done in the last 4-5 years (there may have been a corian job) had the granite tops installed. As a carpenter your cabinets should have been installed level to accept the granite. For me, it's that way, then the granite company comes in, scribes it all out with whatever kind of heavy paper they use, and then go. The term pre-leveling, it must have never made it to Chicago, because when you install your cabinets, they should be level, done once and there's no pre about it. Finally, I have never, in either a kitchen or a bath, had the granite knock a sections of cabinets out of level. Sorry, but cabinets just do not go out of level because you lay a piece of granite on them. If it was to happen, then you never screwed any of them together.
All it takes is a level to see where the slab lays. If it's out of level, then you should eat it for not having the cabinets level in the first place. If it's level, then whatever kind of slot thing you had done was done wrong and that guy should eat it.

wackman

Yeah, I'd say don't worry about blame yet, just go out there and see for yourself what's going on. You should have had those cabinets level way before granite came and seeing for yourself will probably tell you right off who's at fault.

I can't imagine the floor dropping or buckling from granite slabs.

Was the house dropped bad at one end of the kitchen and you had to split the difference with your cabinets between looking level and actually being level? I've had to do that before with some uppers that went all the way to the ceiling and leaving the gap was worse than putting them in slighly out of level. Because of the design, helping to hide the gap with trim wasn't an option.

copusbuilder

Hmmm, when we remodel an existing kitchen and the granite goes on cabinets that are being saved our granite guys level. In fact my granite guys always check for level and shim as needed.
If I was installing a draining area, as a professional granite installer I would make damned sure the cabinet was level "especially in that area"

If I had recommended and not made any $$ off the guy I would be a little irked.

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