Joining A Union

 
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:46 PM   #221
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Re: Joining A Union


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Originally Posted by KillerToiletSpider View Post
You can't work 15 hour days, it's in your contract, no overtime is allowed on this jobsite.
Fine no overtime allowed? Then I will jam the contract to the sky,if I land the job I will pick up my phone and call the guy who has 30 guys...make 200.000 in the middle...you know whats that called my friend? good business...
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I hate when a profitable job becomes a charitable write off.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:48 PM   #222
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Re: Joining A Union


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Yea i understand that...but if GC is in clear state of mind he will hire me for 400000$ and waits a month instead of hiring union and paying 1.400.000 for example.

When you save a million you dont shout much about deadlines..trust me I know it on my experience.
A high rise is not built by a GC, and deadlines in that type of work is everything, if you don't complete your work it holds up ten other trades, are you prepared to pay for that hold up out of pocket? It's in your contract that you are liable to.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:51 PM   #223
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Re: Joining A Union


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Originally Posted by KillerToiletSpider View Post
A high rise is not built by a GC, and deadlines in that type of work is everything, if you don't complete your work it holds up ten other trades, are you prepared to pay for that hold up out of pocket? It's in your contract that you are liable to.
I dont work for developers if thats what you are trying to point out.

I only work for spec homes/custom home GC and a lot of residential...

I also do some schools and did hospital this summer...


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I hate when a profitable job becomes a charitable write off.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:55 PM   #224
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Re: Joining A Union


All of you guys who are union supporters especially you Spider,missing one single point...

Point is,most of stuff is just good business...

I dont make underage kids work for me. I dont make anyone work for me forcefully either.

Everybody works because they want to. Masons are in dire need,if someone was offering better they would've quit.

And there is nothing wrong in doing good business and screwing over the union...anyday,anytime...

Dont tell me unions are innocent and nice...Dishonest people from my country,butt****ed those unions for 40 to 50 years making sure particular contractors get particular contracts and you know what I am talking about.

So if union were innocent and werent wetting their beak,they would not have let themselves to get butt ****ed...

Dont even open my mouth on this ****,I got relatives down in Jersey and I know how ST. Union do their business...

I am done with this bs thread,you guys can fight here,only waste of nerves and make myself look like a dick...
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I hate when a profitable job becomes a charitable write off.

Last edited by TheItalian204; 02-28-2012 at 12:02 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:01 AM   #225
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Re: Joining A Union


I'm just trying to point out to some of the members here what it really takes to do some of the work they would probably never attempt to do, but feel the need to throw their disdain on those that actually do it.
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:09 AM   #226
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Re: Joining A Union


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You talkin' to me?
Well you were the only one on this here thread that didn't have a location listed, but thanks for filling it in
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:13 AM   #227
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Re: Joining A Union


Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerToiletSpider
I'm just trying to point out to some of the members here what it really takes to do some of the work they would probably never attempt to do, but feel the need to throw their disdain on those that actually do it.
But what about those of us who have actually done it
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:15 AM   #228
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Re: Joining A Union


Okay, not that I'm trying to make this the "end all, be all" reply but, many of you guys have valid points here and are very passionate about what you're saying on both sides of the fence..

I'm not pro-union or anti-union
I used to be an apprentice in the Bricklayers Union Local 4, New Jersey

My experience with the union was a very short one to say the least. I met a guy who told me he could get me in and to call him when I was filling out the app. He never responded or gave them the heads up about me, but they gave me my drug test, and they took me anyway. They interviewed me, I dropped 4 names, one of them being my boss at the time who was an old bricklayer, and they let me in. I went to full time 40 hrs/week trade school for 3 months, pre-union training. It was a damn good school, we used special "mud" that had way to much lime in it, so it would never really set. We would literally build walls all day and knock them down. then start over. They made us work very hard and taught us "the game", and made it very clear that the unions did not have much pull anymore, and they said "do not walk around, or milk the clock...years ago, the unions were stronger - well we used to walk around a little bit..but nowawadays..don't you dare."

I finished school, and waited for them to call me to find me a job. After 4 weeks, I said forget it, no use getting spoiled now when that union is on its way out anyways. Now, that Bricklayers' local was 92% unemployed at that time, and as you all know, commercial and big union projects don't use brick very much anymore, so the union bricklayer was not a very bright future. I can't speak for those of you who are plumbers and electricians or such, but I have no regrets leaving the union and I went back to working for my non-union carpentry-construction-remodeling-based companies, learning work that will still be very prominent for years to come.

The Bricklayer Journeyman in NJ get 38.75 per hour, not counting their benefit package, annuity, pension, e.t.c.

I currently make $15.00/hr cash, and work about 50 hours a week. I am 24, and I'm a "glorified" helper. I take home $750-850 a week. In New Jersey, 750 a week is enough to live on your own and even finance a decent car, but not very comfortably. 40k a year is what you need in Jersey to live on your own and have some kind of small car payment. Thats about the minimum. Its do-able, just not super comfortably. I still live home, and have an old chevy truck. No car payment.

You guys all have valid points. Yes, many companies rape the tradesman. Yes, union companies pay guys very fairly BUT, it is not realistic. I work 52 weeks out of the year, they work literally like, maybe 25, no kidding.

I am all about paying tradespeople what they are worth. Seriously. Tradesman deserve good wages, HOWEVER - the union benefit package is ridiculous, along with the annuity and pension. Why can't tradesman just get paid good wages like the rest of white collar America - Screw the damn union benefits that are better than even the benefits that teachers get, and forget your stupid ass pension. If it weren't for the benefits and pension - ALL OF THOSE UNION GUYS WOULD PROBABLY STILL HAVE JOBS 24/7/365.

In fact, now that we're on the subject - I do not believe in employers paying benefits for their employees - Why, so you can pay me a hell of a lot less, on the books, and tell me I should consider myself lucky? No.

A billion construction companies I have interviewed with tell me, we can give you 17.00/hr on the books, but with benefits - and that really costs us 25.00/hr! Well good for you Union Jack - how about you give me 25.00/hr, and I will just take care of my own benefits, and I will buy the benefits that suit my life style and what I need.

I'm 24, 6'1, 245 and solid...healthier than ever, and right now, I buy my own benefit package, and it is a "light" benefit package. I use no prescriptions, and I haven't gotten bed-ridden-sick since I was 14, literally. A 24 year old fitness freak helper does not need the same benefits as a 55 year old laborer with an aching back who has also 2 kids and a wife. Yet, if we all get the same ones we all have to suffer. Some day, when my body is falling apart, I will splurge half my hourly rate on my benefits.

There are no more need for labor unions this day and age. Most of the unions can trace their roots back to the 1800s, where they formed from ultra-violent groups of protesters that were attacking huge, vanderbilt and rockerfeller style capitalistic companies that worked mens' bodies harder than machines, 17 hours a day, payed less than minimum wage, and yep - with no weekend, (hence the union slogan "From the people who brought you the weekend"). Today we have labor laws, overtime, and e.t.c. No need for unions, they just keep high-paying tradesman out of work. If you are union and working I respect you, and have no issue with you. And be proud that you are getting paid properly.

Where im from in Jersey..(these are rough figures of course - it's all relative, give or take)

*THESE ARE ALL NON UNION PAY RATES

Helpers start at $10.00-$15.00/hr
Glorified Helpers $15.00-22.00/hr (ish)
Tradesman/Journeyman/Jr-Mechanic/e.t.c. $20.00-25.00/hr
Full Mechanic/Foreman/Super/e.t.c. $25.00-35.00/hr, up to $40.00/hr

There are mechanics and tradesman who make above $40.00/hr, but they are usually only plumbers and electricians, and some HVAC. It is not uncommon for a licensed non-union plumber to have a job for 45.00/hr out here.

Union workers almost always get paid much more per hour, its just a fact of life. I have a myriad of family members who were the big dawgs in the union years ago. It was just as all about politics back then as it is now. Back then, new construction was booming, and way more people were union. Almost everybody had an uncle Frank or a cousin Tony who could sneak them into the union. Residential contractors were much more scarce back then - just like all you oldschoolers say, "kids don't want to work anymore, nobodys handy these days, back in my day everyone knew how to work on their house" and blah, blah, blah.

Well duh. College educations and white collar career paths were not stressed upon as much. Nowadays, you have an insane amount of overly built up areas, a big recession, and the house market has plummeted quite a bit. So no kidding, union work and new commercial construction is only a speck on the horizon right now. More and more homeowners now than ever are white-collar pencil pushers, and need residential rinky-dink GC's to work on their houses for them and their wives and kids. Right now, the residential non-union guys have the bulk of the work. Eventually, things may change again..who knows really.

It's all relative gentleman. It all evens out. One way or another.
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:15 AM   #229
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Re: Joining A Union


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Originally Posted by BC Carpenter

you don't need to take any courses to write the test, just need previous employers to sign off on your hours.
Maybe that's my problem,

I'm 36 and I have worked for an employer for less than 6 yrs altogether.

For the most part I,ve been a sub or I have partnered with others
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:15 AM   #230
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Re: Joining A Union


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Originally Posted by Mud Master View Post
But what about those of us who have actually done it
Mm thanks so much for that post...I wasnt gonna post but if I cant handle 12 storey doesnt mean somebody like you cant...

Not like only union can provide 30 guys.
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I hate when a profitable job becomes a charitable write off.
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:34 AM   #231
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Re: Joining A Union


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Old 02-28-2012, 12:36 AM   #232
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Re: Joining A Union


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Originally Posted by finakat
In fact, now that we're on the subject - I do not believe in employers paying benefits for their employees - Why, so you can pay me a hell of a lot less, on the books, and tell me I should consider myself lucky? No.

A billion construction companies I have interviewed with tell me, we can give you 17.00/hr on the books, but with benefits - and that really costs us 25.00/hr! Well good for you Union Jack - how about you give me 25.00/hr, and I will just take care of my own benefits, and I will buy the benefits that suit my life style and what I need.

I'm 24, 6'1, 245 and solid...healthier than ever, and right now, I buy my own benefit package, and it is a "light" benefit package. I use no prescriptions, and I haven't gotten bed-ridden-sick since I was 14, literally. A 24 year old fitness freak helper does not need the same benefits as a 55 year old laborer with an aching back who has also 2 kids and a wife. Yet, if we all get the same ones we all have to suffer. Some day, when my body is falling apart, I will splurge half my hourly rate on my benefits
That's the typical thinking of a young employee. You're invincible and nobody and nothing can hurt you.

I can't fault you. Until you get older and have a family or something serious happens like you fall off a ladder at home and break you're back your thinking won't change.

What I can tell you, is that you're thinking about provided benefits is sorely misguided.
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:38 AM   #233
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Re: Joining A Union


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Maybe that's my problem,

I'm 36 and I have worked for an employer for less than 6 yrs altogether.

For the most part I,ve been a sub or I have partnered with others

Ah ok.well I guess best thing you can do if you want to go after it is get with a company, do the schooling as fast as you can, get any hours you've done already signed off. Maybe do your schooling in less than two years and get your time signed off on.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:39 AM   #234
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Re: Joining A Union


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Been there, done that, non union division 9 contractor. I was on the project from the steel and girders fab'ing and setting structural exterior panels til the final punch out pointing up the walls.

Tenant fit outs, mixed use industrial and high rise condos were all I did before I got tired of dealing with the head aches of being so large, and downsized back into a general contractor at a size and project point I am happy with.

I wasn't one of the union bashers, but there are those of us here that have and can complete those types of projects.
Yes, Mud Master, there are plenty of Non-Union companies that can complete large projects:

The largest Non-Union Construction Company in the US is KBR, Inc, formerly owned by Haliburton

Then of course this outfit is pimp slapping the unions in NYC:

http://www.flintlockllc.com/inside.htm

They put up midsize 10- to 30-story buildings, the kind of building where, along with interior finishing and renovation, the unions have been losing most of their market share.


David Von Spreckelsen, vice president of Toll Brothers, said his company built the first of two towers at its Northside Piers project in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, with union contractors. But as construction costs escalated in 2008, Toll Brothers turned to a nonunion contractor for the second tower, prompting unions to protest with five giant inflatable rats. The company now has three apartment buildings under construction in Manhattan with nonunion labor.

http://www.tollbrothers.com/


Union leaders, construction executives and developers are closely watching a project in Long Island City, Queens, where H. Henry Elghanayan, a residential developer whose company traditionally uses union contractors, is expected to select a nonunion outfit to build a large complex with 700 apartments.

“If traditional construction managers that stuck with the unions start losing nine-figure jobs,” said one executive of a union contractor, who refused to be named so as not to further anger the unions, “that’s a game changer.”

Mr. Elghanayan said in an interview that he had yet to select a contractor. But, he added, “Everyone’s pressing to get total development costs down.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/ny...pagewanted=all


Now you can see why the Unions need PLA's to survive.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:06 AM   #235
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Re: Joining A Union


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mud Master

That's the typical thinking of a young employee. You're invincible and nobody and nothing can hurt you.

I can't fault you. Until you get older and have a family or something serious happens like you fall off a ladder at home and break you're back your thinking won't change.

What I can tell you, is that you're thinking about provided benefits is sorely misguided.
I'm fully aware of this. I was hoping nobody would misinterpret that part of the post. What I was saying is, I would much rather just be given the full range of the salary instead and/or have full control over the benefit package that my employee would so kindly assist in paying part of. Too often, you get robbed of all your pay for a benefit package in construction that will make your white collar friends laugh.

I think you're right, I will need a very generous benefit package someday and my priorities will change as I'm older. Hope you didn't take that the wrong way.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:18 AM   #236
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Re: Joining A Union


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I would like to see some of the contractors here that scream no union get awarded a contract for a high rise, I bet not a single one of them could man the job.
they would be too busy jumpin thru hoops in which unions have laid down. I see a trend of certain trades stickin up for unions and some that cant stand. Overpaid plumbers and electricians like them... everyone else hates, except for some dude that lives in Hawaii (sorry you dont count as normal for the USA) besides who needs another highrise
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:51 AM   #237
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Re: Joining A Union


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Originally Posted by KillerToiletSpider
Why didn't you quote the articles about GM dipping into the UAW retirement funds?

Maybe because it reflects mismanagement that is not union caused?

I would never expect you to look at any resources that do not support your agenda.
I didn't say that it was just the unions but they are the main reason because those companies were not allowed to change with the times and adapt otherwise the unions would strike. The legacy costs running into the billions bled the companies dry the same way punlic employee unions are bleeding taxpayers dry. Unions would rather commit suicide than give up anything no matter how much sense it made. The only reason they can do that is because they own the democrats. Look at the recent Boeing extortion attempt by the unions to prevent them from opening a new plant in a non union state so they can remain competitive. Obama stacked the NRLB with union hacks and then they threatened Boeing with lawsuits. How's that for mob tactics? In case you missed it.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/09/news...nlrb/index.htm
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:59 AM   #238
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Re: Joining A Union


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Originally Posted by KillerToiletSpider

High rises don't work that way, you don't have a month, you have a week to get that floor finished, no matter what, and overtime is not a real option, it's spelled out in your contract.
There are hundreds of private companies that can easily handle that but they are forced to hire union labor if they want to bid or else. The private owners of these projects just don't want to deal with the consequences of using non union labor especially in the major cities like NYC, Boston etc. the fact that there are laws forcing employers on public projects to pay exorbitant union wages says a lot and it's taxpayer who are getting screwed.
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:03 AM   #239
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Re: Joining A Union


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He is right here.

You can take longer, but the first couple Weeks run the risk of daily fines per the contract from the GC/CM.

After a short period and your still behind you'll just be thrown off for failure to perform, get the fines taken out of your requisitions up until that point and be charged the difference between the new contractors price and your original one to complete it.
There is no reason why a group of private companies cannot collaborate on a big project. Happens all the time in places where unions don't have the political muscle behind them. I've worked on such projects.
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:07 AM   #240
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Re: Joining A Union


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Well you were the only one on this here thread that didn't have a location listed, but thanks for filling it in

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