I Need Help With My Company Name

Stone Mountain · 01-22-2007, 02:25 PM

Hi guys. I have mentioned that I am franchising my company, for better or worse.
We have been working hard on the whole thing, and so far I'm only 200% above my budget cost. I figure thats pretty good, eh?
For godsake, the legals alone are gonna be $30,000! I could have spent that on more horespower for my car, gosh darn it!

It turns out that my name: Toronto Fence & Deck Centre isn't suitable. We have already incorporated Canada Fence & Deck Centre, but we can't trademark that either (oddly, I could in the U.S.because your trademark laws are a bit different, but that doesn't help me here), because it's too general. I can't use discriptive words, like "quality" or Budget" either. (Strange laws).
I already have my logo trademarked, so I'm OK there, as well as my predecessor company "The Fence & Deck Centre", but again because of Canadian trademark laws that can't be used nationally either (I should go back to the original lawyer who got me the marks 15 years ago and apparently gave me incorrect advice, but he is no longer practicing.)

Anyway, after going through many names, we have come up with 2.

1] Stone Mountain Fence & Deck Centres (My parent company is Steone Mountain contracting, Ltd. Stone is english for the German word Stein, and Mountain is an english equivilent for the German word Berg.(My family name is Steinberg).

2] Forever Outdoors Fence & Deck Centres
Why? Because we like it! It sounds kind of classy to me.

Anyway, opinions, please. So far, its running 30 votes for Stone, and for Forever.......ta da.........30.

Help! I have to decide THIS WEEK!

Oh, and all the usual disclaimers and restrictions and competitive and non competitive usage and rights and copywrites and warnings against using my words and all that legal jazz!

concretemasonry · 01-22-2007, 02:52 PM

As a potential customer, I can't vote for either name.

I hate to upset things, but the usual rule of thumb is 2 or 3 words and no more than 4 words. You can have one corporate names and operate under a different name, but you probably have gone through that route. I would imagine the first MacDonald's was licensed through Krock Enterprises or something like that.

Have you had any business development advice or have you just been dealing with attorneys?

Long names are expensive when it comes to recognition and are easily forgetten or confused.

Your $30,000 is peanuts, when you end up all the other costs. It could be worse, since you could have spent on your horsepower which will not make money.

A hip shot opinion is to just use "Forever Outdoors", which is probably taken. If you are going to be in the U.S. forget about "Centre" unless you are into the "Ye Olde Shoppe" image. You are not advertising a location but a business.

Dick

Chris G · 01-22-2007, 03:06 PM

I just don't like the word 'centre' in your name. I find it a little confusing.

BreyerConstruct · 01-22-2007, 03:27 PM

I'd vote for #1...

It sounds strong, and it's got the personal family touch- very nice!
~Matt

reveivl · 01-22-2007, 03:40 PM

My only input is to make it as general a name that describes what you do as possible. When I invented my company I did only timber framing, but that since changed and I'm stuck (w/o lots of hassle) with the name that doesn't really describe what I do anymore. As you're franchising, perhaps this doesn't apply, if not, sorry for wasting your time reading this!

How about "Decks, Fences, plus" or "Decks and more". Those suck, but the advice is free!!!

Mrmac204 · 01-22-2007, 04:08 PM

oy I know what you mean - doing something like that with my company- a name? well there are rules.. geez, at least I get to send in three choices, and then the gov't decides which one is suitable...
its only 30 bucks though... (B.C.)

Stone Mountain · 01-22-2007, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by concretemasonry

As a potential customer, I can't vote for either name.

I hate to upset things, but the usual rule of thumb is 2 or 3 words and no more than 4 words. You can have one corporate names and operate under a different name, but you probably have gone through that route. I would imagine the first MacDonald's was licensed through Krock Enterprises or something like that.

That's the long name. Currently we are Toronto Fence & Deck Centre, but we answer the phone "Fence & Deck", or "Toronto Fence & Deck"

Have you had any business development advice or have you just been dealing with attorneys? Lots. This name problem has just come up from the Trademark department.

Long names are expensive when it comes to recognition and are easily forgetten or confused.

Your $30,000 is peanuts, when you end up all the other costs. It could be worse, since you could have spent on your horsepower which will not make money.

You're telling me it's peanuts. I'll be into $100,000 by the time I sell a few franchises (I've got 4 potentials right now)

[I]Horsepower is much more fun though.[/I]

A hip shot opinion is to just use "Forever Outdoors", which is probably taken.
If you are going to be in the U.S. forget about "Centre" unless you are into the "Ye Olde Shoppe" image. You are not advertising a location but a business.

I assume you are looking at the spelling. In Canada it's Centre, while in the States it's Center. We would of course spell it appropriately depending on the country. Dick

Thanks for your thoughts.

George Z · 01-22-2007, 05:40 PM

Out there-Fence & Deck

tcleve4911 · 01-22-2007, 05:46 PM

Never heard of an indoor fence ( Forever Outdoors ?&????) I would be confused about what an outdoor forever fence is.
You are Stone Mountain Deck & Fence!!!Sounds like you & best of luck tomorrow!!

Brian · 01-22-2007, 07:41 PM

Personally, as long as a name isn't offensive, I don't think it matters that much. It's what you do behind it that really matters. Your marketing-- the image you project-- and the work you do, will matter more.

Certainly a catchy name helps. And we want our name to create a positive vibe. But if you are franchising, I'd think you'd have a lot more to worry about, such as the systems, marketing, and support you will offer potential franchisees.

Brian Phillips

Mike Finley · 01-22-2007, 08:18 PM

Post back exactly what you do and don't do and what you plan to do and what you plan never to do business wise. With that info it would be a lot easier to help you.

By the way what is with the "centres"?

Canada Deck & Fence sounds great if all you do is decks and fences and you work in Canada, what more could you want?

King of Crown · 01-22-2007, 08:37 PM

I vote for #1.

Stone Mountain · 01-22-2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

Post back exactly what you do and don't do and what you plan to do and what you plan never to do business wise. With that info it would be a lot easier to help you.

By the way what is with the "centres"?

Canada Deck & Fence sounds great if all you do is decks and fences and you work in Canada, what more could you want?

That was the original idea. However, we cannot get the name Canada Fence & Deck trademarked. "Too generic" Too restrictive if someone esle wants, for example "Canad Books" . The Canada part would be in conflict. (as if smeone would confuse decks and books!)
You have to have a "name" like McDonalds. You couldn't just say "great Burger" company.

To answer your question: we build fences and decks, and almost any other type of outdoor structure.

Steve

kanadaeh · 01-22-2007, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stone Mountain

That was the original idea. However, we cannot get the name Canada Fence & Deck trademarked. "Too generic" Too restrictive if someone esle wants, for example "Canad Books" . The Canada part would be in conflict. (as if smeone would confuse decks and books!)
You have to have a "name" like McDonalds. You couldn't just say "great Burger" company.

To answer your question: we build fences and decks, and almost any other type of outdoor structure.

Steve

I am by no means an expert in trademarks but I am a fellow Canadian that has been filing my own trademarks and patents (I'm not a big fan of lawyers) so I have been doing a lot of research on the subject. From what I understand you can use generic words as long as you include a Disclaimer Text(The right to the exclusive use of the words ___________ is disclaimed apart from the trade-mark.)
You can do a free search on the Canadian Trade-marks Database = http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/app/cipo/t...o?language=eng

I believe including the disclaimer text is a fairly new procedure as none of the older trademarks include them with generic words.

Mike Finley · 01-22-2007, 11:23 PM

So Canadian is out too?

Do you have service marks in Canada, in the US I believe we run into the same issues of being too generic to trademark so you go after a service mark.

George Z · 01-22-2007, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanadaeh

I am by no means an expert in trademarks but I am a fellow Canadian that has been filing my own trademarks and patents (I'm not a big fan of lawyers) so I have been doing a lot of research on the subject. From what I understand you can use generic words as long as you include a Disclaimer Text(The right to the exclusive use of the words ___________ is disclaimed apart from the trade-mark.)
You can do a free search on the Canadian Trade-marks Database = http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/app/cipo/t...o?language=eng

I believe including the disclaimer text is a fairly new procedure as none of the older trademarks include them with generic words.

The Great Canadian Soup Company, The Great Canadian Bagel
are franchises. I wonder how they got that.

Stone Mountain · 01-23-2007, 09:56 AM

Hi George. I am not a lawyer. I can only go by what they tell me. Apaarently I CAN trademark it, but with so many disclaimers that it would be essentially worthless. There would be nothing to prevent Canada Deck Co. Or Canada Fence Co, or Canadian Fence or some such, even though it's a clear takeoff on Canada Fence & Deck Centre.
If I was just staying in Toronto, that's fine, but since the whole idea of franchising is to expand, I have to have a solid name to protect the franchisee.
The way it sits, I currently HAVE a trademark on "THe Fence & Deck Centre", as well as an incorporated company "Canada Fence & Deck Centre", but if I sold a franchise to someone in Alberta under Canada Fence, someone else could literally open up next door under Canada Deck, and I couldn't stop it. That's because of the exclusions and disclaimers.
If, on the other hand, I trademakred "Steve's Fence & Deck" and someone opened up "Steve's Deck and Fence", for example, a strong case could be made for trademark infringement.
It's like Apple Music and Apple computer, a case that's been in the papers recently. Two completely different company's, but a similar name.

My logo is secure, however.

Thanks for all your help, guys. Unfortunately, after more than 80 responses from here and elsewhere, it's running 42 for "Stone" and 38 for "Forever", so it still doesn't help much. No clear preference.

Danahy · 01-23-2007, 06:21 PM

I like # 1, seems like it would work around my neighbourhood. I also feel good about the name: "Steinberg Deck & Fence", although it's not as deep as Stone Mountain...

"Forever outdoors fence & Deck centres" doesn't work for me... It says too much, like you're always going to be outside, or your stuff is supposed to last forever, which is a real repeat customer killer if you ask me. The "Centres" word doesn't seem to suit your personality. Centres sounds like a one stop shop type word, and conflicts with the specificness of the words "Deck & Fence"...

my 3 cents.

Question: Are you looking for alternatives, or just a 1 or 2 vote?

dougchips · 01-23-2007, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danahy

I like # 1, seems like it would work around my neighbourhood. I also feel good about the name: "Steinberg Deck & Fence", although it's not as deep as Stone Mountain...

"Forever outdoors fence & Deck centres" doesn't work for me... It says too much, like you're always going to be outside, or your stuff is supposed to last forever, which is a real repeat customer killer if you ask me. The "Centres" word doesn't seem to suit your personality. Centres sounds like a one stop shop type word, and conflicts with the specificness of the words "Deck & Fence"...

my 3 cents.

Question: Are you looking for alternatives, or just a 1 or 2 vote?

Now that Steinberg is included in the vote it gets my vote. People generally equate quality with a German name.

Stone Mountain · 01-23-2007, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougchips

Now that Steinberg is included in the vote it gets my vote. People generally equate quality with a German name.

I don't want to use my surname. Too ethnic. But thnks for the idea.

I must admit, I'm a little frustrated. This name change alone is going tgo wind up costing thousands, which of ocurse I never bugeted for. I had what I thought was a good name, and the whole business plan written around it, and now I have to do this change. I was planning to start marketing at the end of February, and now we have to put that off, possibly till the end of the 07 season.
Well, those of us in the construction industry know all about setbacks, I guess.

anyone wanna buy a franchise: The unknown Fence & Deck company?

01-22-2007, 02:52 PM	#2
concretemasonry View Profile concretemasonry Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,453) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Masonry consultant Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: MSP, Minnesota Posts: 2,453	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name As a potential customer, I can't vote for either name. I hate to upset things, but the usual rule of thumb is 2 or 3 words and no more than 4 words. You can have one corporate names and operate under a different name, but you probably have gone through that route. I would imagine the first MacDonald's was licensed through Krock Enterprises or something like that. Have you had any business development advice or have you just been dealing with attorneys? Long names are expensive when it comes to recognition and are easily forgetten or confused. Your $30,000 is peanuts, when you end up all the other costs. It could be worse, since you could have spent on your horsepower which will not make money. A hip shot opinion is to just use "Forever Outdoors", which is probably taken. If you are going to be in the U.S. forget about "Centre" unless you are into the "Ye Olde Shoppe" image. You are not advertising a location but a business. Dick __________________ Dick Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

01-22-2007, 03:06 PM	#3
Chris G View Profile Chris G Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,774) Photos (0) Reviews (1) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Porch and Deck Builder Join Date: May 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,774	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name I just don't like the word 'centre' in your name. I find it a little confusing.

01-22-2007, 03:27 PM	#4
BreyerConstruct View Profile BreyerConstruct Workin' Hard & Havin' Fun Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,739) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Workin' Hard & Havin' Fun Trade: Deck Designer/Builder Join Date: May 2006 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 1,739	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name I'd vote for #1... It sounds strong, and it's got the personal family touch- very nice! ~Matt __________________ Custom Deck Builder Deck Designer Lancaster Deck Builder Berks Deck Cleaning Breyer Construction & Landscape, LLC Facebook Page www.BreyerConstruction.com

01-22-2007, 03:40 PM	#5
reveivl View Profile reveivl Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,716) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Renovations Join Date: May 2005 Location: West Coast Canada Posts: 1,716	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name My only input is to make it as general a name that describes what you do as possible. When I invented my company I did only timber framing, but that since changed and I'm stuck (w/o lots of hassle) with the name that doesn't really describe what I do anymore. As you're franchising, perhaps this doesn't apply, if not, sorry for wasting your time reading this! How about "Decks, Fences, plus" or "Decks and more". Those suck, but the advice is free!!! __________________ From where does knowledge come? If you need to know what is in a box, you could ask someone (not reliable), you could pray, (not useful), you can consult with the scripture (not helpful) or you could open the box (science) Last edited by reveivl; 01-22-2007 at 03:42 PM.

01-22-2007, 04:08 PM	#6
Mrmac204 View Profile Mrmac204 Finishing Carpenter Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (906) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Finishing Carpenter Trade: finishing Carpenter Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Coquitlam B.C. Canada Posts: 906	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name oy I know what you mean - doing something like that with my company- a name? well there are rules.. geez, at least I get to send in three choices, and then the gov't decides which one is suitable... its only 30 bucks though... (B.C.)

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01-22-2007, 02:25 PM	#1
Stone Mountain View Profile Stone Mountain Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,437) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Outdoor contracting: fences and decks Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,437	I Need Help With My Company Name Hi guys. I have mentioned that I am franchising my company, for better or worse. We have been working hard on the whole thing, and so far I'm only 200% above my budget cost. I figure thats pretty good, eh? For godsake, the legals alone are gonna be $30,000! I could have spent that on more horespower for my car, gosh darn it! It turns out that my name: Toronto Fence & Deck Centre isn't suitable. We have already incorporated Canada Fence & Deck Centre, but we can't trademark that either (oddly, I could in the U.S.because your trademark laws are a bit different, but that doesn't help me here), because it's too general. I can't use discriptive words, like "quality" or Budget" either. (Strange laws). I already have my logo trademarked, so I'm OK there, as well as my predecessor company "The Fence & Deck Centre", but again because of Canadian trademark laws that can't be used nationally either (I should go back to the original lawyer who got me the marks 15 years ago and apparently gave me incorrect advice, but he is no longer practicing.) Anyway, after going through many names, we have come up with 2. 1] Stone Mountain Fence & Deck Centres (My parent company is Steone Mountain contracting, Ltd. Stone is english for the German word Stein, and Mountain is an english equivilent for the German word Berg.(My family name is Steinberg). 2] Forever Outdoors Fence & Deck Centres Why? Because we like it! It sounds kind of classy to me. Anyway, opinions, please. So far, its running 30 votes for Stone, and for Forever.......ta da.........30. Help! I have to decide THIS WEEK! Oh, and all the usual disclaimers and restrictions and competitive and non competitive usage and rights and copywrites and warnings against using my words and all that legal jazz! __________________ Residential Deck Specialist: Vist our Website www.fenceanddeck.ca

01-22-2007, 05:40 PM	#8
George Z View Profile George Z Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,836) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Painting Contractor Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,836	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name Out there-Fence & Deck __________________ Toronto Painters Commercial Painting Commercial Painting Toronto Toronto Office Painters Painting Toronto Blog

01-22-2007, 05:46 PM	#9
tcleve4911 View Profile tcleve4911 Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,247) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Remodeling contractor Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,247	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name Never heard of an indoor fence ( Forever Outdoors ?&????) I would be confused about what an outdoor forever fence is. You are Stone Mountain Deck & Fence!!!Sounds like you & best of luck tomorrow!! __________________ Back in Maine Dubbin' Around Doin' good stuff ......

01-22-2007, 07:41 PM	#10
Brian View Profile Brian Systems Fanatic Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (415) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Systems Fanatic Trade: Painting Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 415	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name Personally, as long as a name isn't offensive, I don't think it matters that much. It's what you do behind it that really matters. Your marketing-- the image you project-- and the work you do, will matter more. Certainly a catchy name helps. And we want our name to create a positive vibe. But if you are franchising, I'd think you'd have a lot more to worry about, such as the systems, marketing, and support you will offer potential franchisees. Brian Phillips __________________ Houston Interior Painting Houston Exterior Painting Houston Painting Contractor

01-22-2007, 08:18 PM	#11
Mike Finley View Profile Mike Finley Chief Toilet Mover Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (14,078) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Chief Toilet Mover Trade: Bathroom Remodeling Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 14,078	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name Post back exactly what you do and don't do and what you plan to do and what you plan never to do business wise. With that info it would be a lot easier to help you. By the way what is with the "centres"? Canada Deck & Fence sounds great if all you do is decks and fences and you work in Canada, what more could you want?

01-22-2007, 08:37 PM	#12
King of Crown View Profile King of Crown Heavy Weight Champ Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (639) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Heavy Weight Champ Trade: finish carpentry Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: mesa arizona Posts: 639	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name I vote for #1. __________________ Real nice guys

01-22-2007, 11:23 PM	#15
Mike Finley View Profile Mike Finley Chief Toilet Mover Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (14,078) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Chief Toilet Mover Trade: Bathroom Remodeling Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 14,078	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name So Canadian is out too? Do you have service marks in Canada, in the US I believe we run into the same issues of being too generic to trademark so you go after a service mark.

01-23-2007, 09:56 AM	#17
Stone Mountain View Profile Stone Mountain Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,437) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Outdoor contracting: fences and decks Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,437	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name Hi George. I am not a lawyer. I can only go by what they tell me. Apaarently I CAN trademark it, but with so many disclaimers that it would be essentially worthless. There would be nothing to prevent Canada Deck Co. Or Canada Fence Co, or Canadian Fence or some such, even though it's a clear takeoff on Canada Fence & Deck Centre. If I was just staying in Toronto, that's fine, but since the whole idea of franchising is to expand, I have to have a solid name to protect the franchisee. The way it sits, I currently HAVE a trademark on "THe Fence & Deck Centre", as well as an incorporated company "Canada Fence & Deck Centre", but if I sold a franchise to someone in Alberta under Canada Fence, someone else could literally open up next door under Canada Deck, and I couldn't stop it. That's because of the exclusions and disclaimers. If, on the other hand, I trademakred "Steve's Fence & Deck" and someone opened up "Steve's Deck and Fence", for example, a strong case could be made for trademark infringement. It's like Apple Music and Apple computer, a case that's been in the papers recently. Two completely different company's, but a similar name. My logo is secure, however. Thanks for all your help, guys. Unfortunately, after more than 80 responses from here and elsewhere, it's running 42 for "Stone" and 38 for "Forever", so it still doesn't help much. No clear preference. __________________ Residential Deck Specialist: Vist our Website www.fenceanddeck.ca

01-23-2007, 06:21 PM	#18
Danahy View Profile Danahy Mike Danahy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (670) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Mike Danahy Trade: Signature Painter Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Ontario Posts: 670	Re: I Need Help With My Company Name I like # 1, seems like it would work around my neighbourhood. I also feel good about the name: "Steinberg Deck & Fence", although it's not as deep as Stone Mountain... "Forever outdoors fence & Deck centres" doesn't work for me... It says too much, like you're always going to be outside, or your stuff is supposed to last forever, which is a real repeat customer killer if you ask me. The "Centres" word doesn't seem to suit your personality. Centres sounds like a one stop shop type word, and conflicts with the specificness of the words "Deck & Fence"... my 3 cents. Question: Are you looking for alternatives, or just a 1 or 2 vote? Last edited by Danahy; 01-23-2007 at 06:28 PM.

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