i am frustrated and relieved - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Scott Young · 07-07-2006, 10:04 PM

well it finally happened. my first monster deck. i have built decks and porches of all shapes and sizes, but i have never had one as big as 2000 square feet and multileveled.

it was beautiful on paper. ho was a day late with the material draw, and the lumber company was out of some lumber that i needed on the front end. so instead of starting on the weekend, i was going to start next week.

got a call tonight from ho demanding his money back in a drunken slur because i didn't start today and wasn't planning starting tomorrow. i reminded him, he was late with the initial draw and i did all the layout for piers and ordered material today. didn't matter. he wanted to see wood and progress.

i told him i would have his money for him tomorrow and i will put a stop call on the material. i am frustrated that i lost out on such a big project, but i am relieved that sour eggs came out on the front instead of the rear when i would be heavily vested in the work and would loose. i have lost two days of labor, and i would like to recoup my losses. i don't know how to charge him since the work was figured in the total cost of the job. my wife says just walk away and let him bury himself. day one was spent drawing out deck and figuring material cause he was late on the draw. most of the work was done during the estimate phase, and there was not much work to be done. most of it was just busy work cause i have a hard time doing nothing. day two was getting the draw and ordering material. laying out deck and pier locations.

well tomorrow, i will go and get my layout stings and batter boards. i am also going to drop off his money. i am now rambling so i will stop typing.

**ProWallGuy** · 07-07-2006, 10:07 PM

In my world, it would be way too late for him to put a stop on it, per my contract. I could/would decide not to go forward, but he would definitely owe me money. and yeah, better to find out sooner than later that he is an ass.

tzzzz216 · 07-07-2006, 10:16 PM

Listen to your wife, walk away that guy is trouble !!!! hes the type that will find flaws in your work and wont want to pay you then take you to court.

Try to send these jobs overseas!!

ron schenker · 07-07-2006, 10:30 PM

He may change his mind when he sobers up tomorrow

but like everyone is saying...this guy is trouble with a capital T

Scott Young · 07-07-2006, 10:34 PM

pwg,

that is part of the problem. i have a work stop clause in the contract, but it covers tangible moneys on material and contracted labor (subs).

**ProWallGuy** · 07-07-2006, 11:10 PM

Time to change that clause, eh?

Grumpy · 07-08-2006, 09:37 AM

I don't know if I would have returned all the money.

Bottom line is if the customer wants to cancel the job, I am going to cancel the job, even if I have the legal right to proceed. It's just not worth it in my opinion, however I am going to keep some of the money for any work already done which includes administrative work like ordering and cancelling materials. Also if I came up with the design for the deck I would charge him for that also.

What I would do in your case is return a check stapled to an invoice. On the check the memo would read "FINAL REFUND, by accepting this refund I agree no more monies are owed to me by Scott Young" I would also attach an invoice explaining "Administrative work, ordering and cancelling materials 2 hours. Permit fees plus time spent securing permit. etc" Break it all down. In some states you can also tack on 15% for the remaining balance for lost profit. Hell with creative financing, he can even end up owing you money

Mike Finley · 07-08-2006, 09:47 AM

We take a deposit and the deposit is non-refundable. If you did the same you would now not be in the situation you are in. #1 you would have some compensation for your work so far, #2 the customer wouldn't even be asking for his money back and your project wouldn't be in jeapordy.

Scott you can probably salvage the job at this point, if he was drinking he probably will be coming to his senses, if he is married, she will probably be bringing him to his senses. Regardless, if you do decide to salvage the job, this is the perfect point to have a little talk and get the details straightened out, and by details I mean the money part of your deal. Make sure you have iron clad details of when you are going to be getting paid along this job in a written contract. If you don't have a contract with a progressive payment schedule in it with him, this would be the time to explain to him you need to straighten a few things out and make sure everybody understands everything so we don't have anymore confusion.

If you can't get every duck in a row and feel secure that you won't be running into money problems with this guy as the job goes on, then it would be time to cut and run. But if you can get everything right, then you might want to just deal with the idiot since this project will be one that can spring board your career.

Grumpy · 07-08-2006, 10:25 AM

I might add, one more reason I try not to answer the phone after a few drinks in the evening... unless I know the number. Heck soometimes especially if I KNOW the number

My friends and family already know I don't answer my cell if I don't know the number on nights and sundays.

Mike do you ever run into problems with that non refundable thing? I have written clause that deposites are non refundable for special order materials and non-returnables items. Like I said if the customer wants to cancel, I am not going to hold them to it... I'd just be buying a head ache and would prefer to give their money back... but have you ever had anyone balk when you said the deposite is non refundable during your initial presentation?

Glasshousebltr · 07-08-2006, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

I might add, one more reason I try not to answer the phone after a few drinks in the evening... unless I know the number. Heck soometimes especially if I KNOW the number

Good call Grump.

.....No pun intended

Bob

Scott Young · 07-08-2006, 12:47 PM

well his wife was in hysterics this morning when i pulled out. she did not want me to go. he called from his work and apologized copiously. since i did not cover my six in the first contract, i returned the money and told him if he wanted to me to do it i would redraw the contract and put him back on the list, but he was now at the end of a long list. you better believe when or if the new contact is signed i will have some new verbage in it. i also told him that the cost of the deck would not be the same since it would reflect additional monies to recoupe losses due to homeowner delays. he agreed to everything. i think it was because the missus was not happy.

contracts are new to me since most of my work has been done on handshakes. i have some general guidelines but i am taking my contract to a lawyer and getting it beefed up. i have been fortunate that i have only had a couple sour deals in all the years i have been doing construction.

bergenbldr · 07-08-2006, 01:17 PM

Scott, rule number one of contracting never forget the "contract"in contractor. I never do any sizeable job with out a min 10% non-refundable deposit,this compensates you not only for adminstrative time such as filing permits and drawing plans,but also for lost business. You also need to account for your fixed overhead costs when contemplating a refund in this situation.

Mike Finley · 07-08-2006, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Young

well his wife was in hysterics this morning when i pulled out. she did not want me to go. he called from his work and apologized copiously. since i did not cover my six in the first contract, i returned the money and told him if he wanted to me to do it i would redraw the contract and put him back on the list, but he was now at the end of a long list. you better believe when or if the new contact is signed i will have some new verbage in it. i also told him that the cost of the deck would not be the same since it would reflect additional monies to recoupe losses due to homeowner delays. he agreed to everything. i think it was because the missus was not happy.

That's awesome!

Greg Di · 07-08-2006, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

Scott you can probably salvage the job at this point,

Mike,

even though we know the outcome, I can't believe that you would try/reccomend that anyone "salvage" a job like that. Money or not. If this HO is on a hair trigger, the rest of the job will be miserable.

I don't know about the other guys here, but there is no amount of sheet I'll eat for anyone. Regardless of contracts and business, what kind of dick is the HO for calling for a refund because of a 1 day delay on a project that size. More often than not, you can sniff that type of customer out from day one meeting. I avoid them like the plague.

No offense, I was just suprised.

Greg

Tom R · 07-08-2006, 05:19 PM

The guy was drunk and he apologized, - - life goes on . . .

Mike Finley · 07-08-2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Di

Mike,

even though we know the outcome, I can't believe that you would try/reccomend that anyone "salvage" a job like that. Money or not. If this HO is on a hair trigger, the rest of the job will be miserable.

I don't know about the other guys here, but there is no amount of sheet I'll eat for anyone. Regardless of contracts and business, what kind of dick is the HO for calling for a refund because of a 1 day delay on a project that size. More often than not, you can sniff that type of customer out from day one meeting. I avoid them like the plague.

No offense, I was just suprised.

Greg

More than likely if the guy was capable of this stuff I personally probably would never even have signed a contract with him since there would have been too many red flags, but without knowing all the details...

This is one of those cases where for me it is too hard to read between the lines and know exactly what went on. On one hand it could be a no-brainer and I would walk away, on the other it could be just a misunderstanding that Scott is responsible for in the first place, you know what I mean?

Like I said I would get every duck in a row, and if that wasn't possible then walk. Unless I felt really good about the whole thing it wouldn't be worth pursuing, because like you are implying this could just turn into one huge cluster fu#k as you get on with it.

River Rat Dad · 07-08-2006, 06:28 PM

Speaking from expeirence I'm pretty sure I have had a couple too many

and said some things I regret a time or two in my life.

Not suggesting one way or the other about this particular case. Maybe the guy just had a bad day along with too many pops. I'd more measure his sober apology than his drunken offense

Tom R · 07-08-2006, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by River Rat Dad

Speaking from expeirence I'm pretty sure I have had a couple too many

and said some things I regret a time or two in my life.

Not suggesting one way or the other about this particular case. Maybe the guy just had a bad day along with too many pops. I'd more measure his sober apology than his drunken offense

That's how I'm lookin' at it, - - the other thing is, even all apologies aside, - - if someone cancels a job on me at the very last minute, - - I'm definitely getting a FAIR SHARE for the inconvenience and loss of schedule, - - and they're SURE NOT getting ANY money back the very next day . . .

Though the outcome here was far from predictable, - - without such a fast money return, - - this job still would have been 'on' . . .

Mike Finley · 07-08-2006, 07:18 PM

Quote:

I'd more measure his sober apology than his drunken offense

Quote:

if someone cancels a job on me at the very last minute, - - I'm definitely getting a FAIR SHARE for the inconvenience and loss of schedule, - - and they're SURE NOT getting ANY money back the very next day . . .

2 good points!

Scott Young · 07-08-2006, 07:57 PM

i was impressed with an apology. i have said many stupid things when i was drunk and i am glad not all of them were held against me. i did have to suffer the consequences though. so does this ho. he was mad at a delay that he caused and circumstances compounded. now he has to wait till he comes back up in the list. also he will be facing a new contract that will protect me more than it does him.