Fast Production = Poor Installations

SuperiorBuilt

I just started working with a door installer with one the big box stores the other day because it has been very slow. I come from the school of do it right the first time. I got to experience the world of fast and dirty door installations . I learned a lot yesterday:
#1 - Make a door fit any way possible (even when it The rough opening is 2'' too small) NO NEW HEADER IS NECESSARY
#2- When you cut an romex electrical wire, its ok to put electrical tape over the cut pieces instead of replacing the wire.
#3- Using plastic wrap around the new opening is not necessary with fast production work.
#4- Insulation under the sill plate is not necessary and insulation is to be used very sparely along the sides and top.
#5- It ok to use 3'' drywall screws to hold the door to the existing R.O. instead of Deckmate exterior screws.
#6- Using sHims very sparelingly if not at all with A PASLODE gun to secure the door to the R.O.
#7- If the new prehung door is flush with the interior sheetrock wall it must be plumb (By the way it was not it was out 3/4'' over the 80'' opening.)
#8- Centering the door between the 2 exterior porch lights is not necessary
#9- When the door rubs on the top corner opposite the hinges the best way to fix it is the hit the jamb with a block of wood and hammer to make the ADJUSTMENT..
I don't think I will be able to work very long with this guy. Hopefully work will pick up again

Cole

You have to be kidding me!!!!!!!!

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KentWhitten

Hopefully you can become THE big box door installer. Keep it clean when you get the chance and hopefully the bigger guy will see that your value is more appreciated than the hack. Working for HD or Lowes is not all bad, there is some good there, but not much.

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dirt diggler

ya know ...i thought about this

i don't blame him (the dude you worked with)


here's why ...


the big box stores are NOT contractors.

From what I understand (and from what I've read on here) they have installers paid 1099.

But they're anything BUT actual subcontractors. True contractors name THEIR price ... not the other way around. They're just paying under the table. Call it what you want - that's exactly what they're doing.

I would bet that they make their money on the sale - not the installation. The installation is more or less probably an incentive to buy. After all - if you pay for a door, why not pay a little bit more for someone to install it??



Now ... that "little bit" gets thrown into the business machine - and sh*ts out in the form of nothing more than an amount one could easily make working as a cashier at H8m8e D8p8t





Looking at it that way ... why bother installing a header where one is needed ???

Or why waste a precious 10 more minutes to center a door???


Quality DEMANDS time. Time DEMANDS money.

When you pay sh*t, you WILL GET SH*T.




This is like a law of physics - it is Isaac Newton-type sh*t. Right up there with gravity.





But - evidently there is a market. Because people will watch Dateline one night, and the next day go purchase a new deck (with free installaion) ... only to wind up complaining about it on some Rip Off Dot Com site three months later....


now if you all will excuse me, I have to go check on the L*wes guy who is installing my fence

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kevjob

Be careful with your truck signage and your business name, wouldn't want anyone confusing your quality with num-nuts.

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SuperiorBuilt

I made sure of that before I started. What really sucks is some of the neighbors stopped by asking for business cards because they need work done on their homes. I definitely don't want my company's name associated with this homeowner's door installation.

Stone Mountain

There's the problem in a nutshell. The installation is piss-poor, and yet neighbours are still asking for estimates! Homeowners EXPECT decent work, can't quite comprehend that someone may give them a lousy job, and can't recognize poor workmanship.

I lost a job a few months ago to another contractor who was much cheaper. The homeowner said he had gone to look at this guy's work and was satisfied. I drove by some weeks later (it was a corner lot), and I looked at the finished job. It was.....ok I suppose. Lots of small problems where you could see it was rushed, not so great wood, not many mitre cuts, and those that were there you COULD get the proverbial matchstick into, and so on. Worse, all the scrap was still on the site for the homeowner to get rid of.

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deckman22

In most cases you get what you pay for. Those looking for the lowball price aren't looking for the best work. Those that pay top dollar certainly expect as they should.

I can't agree with fast production = poor installation tho, some folks are just that good that they can do good work at a fast pace. Admittedly tho it's usually not the case.

Al

wallmaxx

DIRT,

Quality DEMANDS time. Time DEMANDS money.
When you pay sh*t, you WILL GET SH*T.

This is like a law of physics - it is Isaac Newton-type sh*t. Right up there with gravity.


Awesome way to state the facts. If you don't mind, I am going to start using the phrase "Isaac Newton type sh*t!" I often run into know it alls. I will be instructing them on the finer points of Sir Isaac.


Brevity is the essence of wit. Thanks.

Mike

Mike Finley

Want an eye opener? Show those neighbors the finished door you are posting about. Don't say anything about what you told us. Ask them to rate what they see from 1 to 10.

Now ask them if they are all willing to pay exactly double what this door installation cost for the same work for them?

Two things I guarantee. Most of them will rate that door a 7 or higher and you will get a big fat NO on paying double.

Now discuss that.

THAT IS REALITY.

tnt specialty

You said it Mike!

WNYcarpenter

I've been in situations similar to that, it was confusing...you wonder what slather ass way you're supposed to work. I'd go home feeling dumber than I did when I woke up. It was like re-learning everything!

I hope business picks up so you can go back to doing things the way they should be done.

Who's responsible for callbacks? Who does the HO call when a bearing wall without a header pinches the door shut, or the DW screws rust out etc...?

Ahren

I can definitely see this point. I briefly sub-contracted decks from a remodeler that was a total shyster. He talked a great game to the HO's, and then cut corners any way he could. I was always amazed at how his customers were satisfied with his crappy work. Many people that aren't in the trades don't even know what to spot. I couldn't personally continue to take work from him, but he's still going strong. The sad reality is, most HO's make their decisions based on $$$.

SuperiorBuilt

I think you are all right, you get what you pay for, but this the thing. The big box store charges a decent amount for the installation. So as a consumer you say "I am paying extra because of the big box name". This is what the consumers don't know:
- big box store takes their cut and subs the work out to one main contractor (#1) yes its all in the fine print in their contracts.
-contractor #1 then is basically a paper company that now subs the work out to contractor #2 companies
-contractor #2 wants to get more business so he find smaller companies to help him complete his work. Yes I am working at this level. Pay sucks and there is the "install as much as you can'' mentality.
Yes some are right you get what you pay for but unforunately the consumer is the one who gets the short end of the stick.He has paid top dollar to have the cheapest guy install his purchases. You can see this by all the news reports and consumer websites bashing the big box stores.
This is the problem with the big box store business model : there are too many people with their hands out grabbing money even before the installer gets his work order. The big box store's contractor#1 will promise the new and up coming contractor(#2 or #3) steady work . Contractor #2 and #3 don't realize they are short changing themselves by setteling for a cheap labor rate.
Yes this is the big box store model in a nutshell.

dirt diggler

that's kinda what i was sayin sup'

i have no idea what they're payin you per install - but I have been in a piece work type situation. You can't help but to do fast, sloppy work.

cuz if you took your time to do a nice job - you might as well be waiting tables at Lenny's

sorry - i mean Dennys


The big box guys know that SOMEONE will work for nothing - heck, they probably realize alot of people don't actually realize they're not making money.

It's a sham. No, not "shame" - a "sham"

Hope your benefiting from this though



I say F**K em. If they want to pay you Sh*t - give them EXACTLY what they ordered.

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Thanks in advance!!!

ApgarNJ

i don't even like homeowners going to buy their door or window to have it installed. because then they haggle with you over how much time you spent on the install if the install went well and you got it in and trimmed in a timely manner. also, if they measured it or someone else did, is it even going to fit? I charge more when someone has already done what I should be hired to do, come and measure, make sure it's going to fit and see all the things potentially a HO can't see.
I called an HD near me just to check to see what they charge for installation and knew that my price would be higher than theres. they do get a pretty good price though, but i bet the installer gets a very small percentage of that.
not sure why homeowners can't get it into their heads that they can pay almost the same or a little bit more to a contractor outside of the big box store and get a much better install(most of the time)

troubleseeker

What I have always called the perfect combination.. a "generic homeowner and a highy sophisticated marketing machine. The typical person does not know the difference between the low ball price stuff from the big boxes (not everything, but an awful lot of their merchandise) and the same product that is a quality unit. If you are comparing the same product (both manufacturer and identical model number, and they are cheaper, is it possible because of their huge buying volume, otherewise you are usually buying a bottom end cheap product. One of the easiest comparisons on this to see is their plumbing repair parts. Compare the thickness of a p trap to one that comes from a supply house, both metal and pvc, we are talking 50% difference in wall thickness. Same for tools, a Makita model ABC anything is that item no matter where it comes from, but just because it has the same brand name , is called the same tool, and looks alike does not automatically make it an ABC model unlesss you check the tag. It is usually the AB model and of course the typical buyer falls for the cheaper price without realizing that he is buying a tool of fewer amps, lesser bearing or bushings, etc.

As for their installation services, I don't believe that they keep any quality tradesmen after a few jobs. You are paid from a regimented per item or per foot price list, with no regards to any job conditions. Sure you will do ok on the 1 out of ten jobs where everything falls into place, but you take a beating on the other nine. The hacks will make out on all of them because of exactky what is described in the thread, but the quality guy is not going to do the kind of crap necessary to make it work dollar wise. The big box has their cut off the top and could care less about the guy they hired.

troubleseeker

Because the typical HO is no match for the professional marketing of any large coprporations' advertisers. Just as you say, they could hire an individual for the same price, and get a better quality job because he is making what the labor is worth, instead of paying a big box the same labor amount, then getting an installer who is only getting paid 60% of that for his work, while the big box takes the rest off the top.

works4me

This looks like the thread to share this story in. Guy I went to high school with was a good used car salesman type (he actually was for awhile). Got into real estate and construction (he didn't even know which end of a hammer to use). He was the type to follow any job and say "get other proposals and I'll bet the lowest by $500.00". He would get the job, go to Lowes and find the worst looking/desperate group of guys he could find that looked like they knew a little something. He would pull a WAD of cash out in front of them and say "Do this job for me I'll pay you cash" - he would nail them down to a very low price (but they were hungry for cash). They would hack the jobs up and I heard from one of the guys when the HO's complained he would "yell" back at them "you got the cheapest bid, what do you expect, it's good for what you are paying!". Don't ask me how he ever got paid in full, but he always seemed to. Then he would pull out his WAD and offer the workers about 1/2 what he agreed to pay them - cash on the spot, otherwise they would not get paid for a long time or maybe not at all - so them being desperate would take it and just cuss him (they of course had no contract, license, insur., or knowledge for that matter). He was making some pretty big bucks. So, I thought years ago (about 10) that this was all going to blow up on him. The guy is still doing it - only now he has a roofers license (never laid a shingle in his life) - and I have heard he has about 20+ roofs lined up with the city on contracts for new roofs (not sure the $/sq. but it was high), he's using the desperate workers still for cash, I thought now he's going to get nailed hard - doing this crap work with city housing. It's been three years on the roofing and he's still working/$$$ like crazy. ??????? I couldn't sleep at night doing it like this and I definately don't feel sorry for any of the HO's who use a guy that gets jobs by undercutting the lowest bid.

ApgarNJ

he's the jerk contractor who gives the honest people a bad name, and the reason why people are so uneasy about hiring someone.
this guy should be reported. he's a disgrace to the name contractor or businessman.