Do You Sign The Subs Contract Or Make Them Sign Your Sub Agreement?

wackman

I often get sub contracts that are so poorly detailed that I find I need to add in the details of the job on their contracts and make them sign that version before we can start work.

Not that they're bad subs at all, I'm just a stickler for clarity so that we don't have problems (like many of the threads I've read on here...) or confusion as to what we agreed on.

So I've been thinking about creating my own sub agreements. I always just assumed you had to be a big builder (100+) homes a year before most subs would go for that though.

How many GC's/builders have their own sub agreement and how big are you?

How many of you subs don't like that and at what point do you feel it's worth it or you're comfortable signing their agreement?

I'm not looking to run anyones company (common law employees) or beat anyone down, it's just plain easier if I write down all the details of how I want things done (especially things that are very personal and not just industry standard, like trim details, specific locations for different items, etc...) for them to bid off of and then we sign that with their price inserted.

Does anyone have a good sub agreement that is fair to both parties for this situation (I'll check the archives in a min)?

Wack

__________________
"I only bother remembering things that I can't easily look up." Albert Einstein

rbsremodeling

They sign my agreement. But I really believe its based on your leverage. I have alot of work to offer so they do what i ask or tell them to do. I do think you have to be the big dog to get this

__________________

Mike Finley

Subs sign ours.

Personally I think it would be financial and business suicide to do it any other way, and I can't even imagine even considering anything else. I've never had a single sub ever have an objection to anything in our agreements, or raise an eyebrow in regard to signing one. I've been doing it that way from day one.

wackman

That's kinda what I was thinking. Do you build new or remodel? Resi or comm? I'm wondering what kind of numbers I need to be running in order to make it work...

__________________
"I only bother remembering things that I can't easily look up." Albert Einstein

rbsremodeling

I do remodels only residential I am in the 2mil gross+ a year group. But subs account for 60% of that. Electric, HVAC, Plumbing, drywall, flooring and windows are the bulk of that

__________________

Stone Mountain

My subs sign my contracts. When I act as a sub to a large builder/developer, I usually sign theirs. If it's for a single home, it's usually my contract for the builder.

__________________
Residential Deck Specialist: Vist our Website
www.fenceanddeck.ca

Jake Stevens

All my sub's sign my contract but also they have to do a Predetermination of Independent Contractor Status with the State of Maine.

My Sub's use to do about 60% of my work and now it's only 30 to 35%.

rbsremodeling

The 60% i use is dollar volume so I should have clarified that they do a small part of my work, but their dollar volume is a big percentage of my gross dollar amount

__________________

Double-A

Wack, something we have in our sub agreement is that they have G/L and workers comp and they will keep it for the duration of their time on the job. Also, it prohibits anyone that is not specifically covered under their insurance from coming to the job site for a visit or whatnot (girlfriends, friends, buddies, etc.).

__________________
"My clients’ wishes are the center of my attention." -- David Guido, a contractor in Woodstock, N.Y.
New York Times, July 20, 2006

tnt specialty

Most subs sign our agreement much as as wackman pointed out....When acting as a sub, I whip out the red pen and go to town, or/& our contract is included with the GC's as an attachment.

Floordude

As a contractor, it is my contract with my client.

If I subcontract, the guy I'm subcontracting from, is my client.

If I have to subcontract out any portion of the work, I get a proposal from the other contractor/business.


If a GC wants me to sign his contract, I say no thanks, I'm not looking for employment. Your contract is an employment agreement, not a subcontract. Your already starting the relationship with control, from the very beginning.

I have never signed a contract for my services, from another company needing my services, that they composed. Talk about screw'n the pooch.

That would be like you guys showing up at Mrs. Homeowner's, and she hands you her one sided contract, where your screwed unless you do as she says. Would you sign it??? The difference is, you know what it is to be a business in business, not just someone looking for work, and being called a subcontractor.

__________________
**Education is the key to success. Learn more, earn more.**
http://www.AustinFloorguy.com

Tscarborough

My conception has always been that the entity providing the specifications and plans provides the contract.

I will also say that I have turned down 3 subcontractor agreements from homebuilders building more than 100 homes a year in the last 12 months. Their agreements are both too broad and too detailed for our lawyers to sign. That is telling hundreds of thousands of dollars of work "thank you but no thank you", but I can better spend the time and effort pursuing other customers.

__________________
It ain't Rocket Science unless you are building rockets.

d-rez

Funny thing, I was working on revising my Sub-contracts tonight, ammending them a little. I agree that many of the contracts that subs present to me are shoddy and vague. I amazed at the mispellings too: my HVAC subs contract refers to a "ruff inspection". If a subs contract covers all bases, I'm game.

neolitic

Now you've gone and screwed up
my night.
Son is about to start his part of
the work on the new stadium.
I've been lobbying to get a chance
to come "visit" while they're working.

I even dug up my old "brass" hard hat
for the occasion.

__________________
Put your location in your profile!
(Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)

Mike Finley

The one thing that has never been explained to me by anyone asking or answering this question is - Indemnification.

As far as I know, the majority of General Liability insurance policies issued require any sub-contractor working for a GC to sign a indemnification policy or the GCs insurance company will drop the GC's coverage.

This issue alone is reason enough to have to have a sub always sign a sub-contractor agreement, which will have that indemnification clause as part of it.

Tscarborough

And that is the primary reason I won't sign big builders contracts, Finley. Phrase it correctly, fine, but as it is usually presented, you are bending over and dropping trou, with no hope of even a reach around.

__________________
It ain't Rocket Science unless you are building rockets.

Tiger

I'm with Floordude. I went through the time and trouble to have my lawyer draw up a contract. My clients sign my contract.

Dave

Mike Finley

I think it's pretty much a common thought that working for big builders is like selling your soul to the devil isn't it?

It's basically a trade off for 'easy' money, (ie - steady money), for low pay, eating costs you normally would charge for, being beat up on every invoice, being slow walked for your money... etc...

Subs for big builders are hardly worried at all about what they sign, they pretty much know the dance, they all know they are going to get f**ked, it's only a question of how much and for how long.

The stories I hear from friends who work for them just blow me away.

"Yeah they owe me $120,000. I went to his office and we screamed at each other for 20 minutes, he told me he was back charging me $15,000 and then he gave me a check for $20,000 and said he needed time for the rest..."

Wow! So you are done working for them?

"Oh, no, we are starting work on their new development next month, 120 houses."

Tom F.

I had started to ask about this subject a couple weeks ago, but decided I'd sound more ignorant than usual. I would LOVE to get my subs to sign a basic agreement. However, I'd be the first one in the area (Rural East TN) to get them to do so. I hate operating as we do currently, with basically no agreements except verbal. It is awful. How does a small volume builder like myself get his trades to start doing business professionally? And please don't say take it or leave it. I don't have that many superior quality subs to choose from.

What I have found interesting is that these same subs don't ever ask me for a contract. I could be the screwer, not the screwee, if I wanted to. I have a good rep. for taking care of my subs, so I guess they aren't worried.

I guess it could be worse. I could be in West Virginia. At least here most of the guys can read.

Tscarborough

Tom F., get a couple of the better ones together, drink a beer, and talk to them about it. Have a simple outline, and explain why you should have a written agreement. The only argument that I have ever needed against a verbal agreement is, "One of us could die in our sleep, then what".

__________________
It ain't Rocket Science unless you are building rockets.