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Old 04-02-2008, 01:32 AM   #1
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DIY Chatroom


I have really enjoyed this Contractors forum over the past few weeks since I have joined. Thought I'd go over to the DIY Chatroom to offer some of my wisdom to those who ask for it. It really makes me wish I could reach through this monitor and slap people!!
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:58 AM   #2
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Re: DIY Chatroom


Why do people insist on giving advice to people that don't respect the laws[permitting/inspections].Don't complain when there's no work for you because your job is easy and any one can do it with the right tools.
This is not a shot at you OP,just making a point.I'll help people performing legal work but I'm not going to tell Joe Blow how to vent pipes,etc.Frickin stupid ,stupid,stupid!

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Old 04-02-2008, 07:34 AM   #3
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Re: DIY Chatroom


The reality of matters and the real-world, is this: When it comes to Home Ownership and
(maintenance/building/construction/remodeling/alteration...what-have-you)....the average home owner has no clue. They are not ignorant people, however, the majority of the time, they are ignorant to laws, to the whole permit arrangement, and how to do things properly.
A main area that you see this in, is, electrical alterations (OMG) .

Those things are not necessarily their fault. The only thing they usually have to go by, is what they are told (by their peers - other Home owners). We are not their peers - in their eyes

There is a premise that exists outside of the construction community that "you don't want to pull a permit", "It's all about the city getting your money", "The city is going to bust your kahoonies", "You don't need a permit", etc, etc. These are basically "urban legends" that still are out there. (I am not saying that permited jobs won't cost more)

As far as some of the hair-brained things discussed at DIY, the ridiculous questions, the lack of insight, the stubborness by some.....It requires patience. They know not, what they do.

My advice to any contractor who posts on DIY Chatroom is to be patient, bite/hold your tongue. People listen to doctors who talk to them in a gentle and informative manner. That is always the best approach when speaking to any home owner.

Don't force your knowledge on them, allow them to see the reasonablness, the experience, and the logic, of what you have to say. If they choose not to listen, then, so be it.

Remember that we have the privilege of living in a relatively free society. People have an obligation to abide by the laws. If, after having been informed, they choose to "do their own thing", there will inevitably be some kind of consequences for them to pay, at some point, in time.
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Old 04-02-2008, 08:23 AM   #4
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Re: DIY Chatroom


Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlanticWBConst View Post
The reality of matters and the real-world, is this: When it comes to Home Ownership and
(maintenance/building/construction/remodeling/alteration...what-have-you)....the average home owner has no clue. They are not ignorant people, however, the majority of the time, they are ignorant to laws, to the whole permit arrangement, and how to do things properly.
A main area that you see this in, is, electrical alterations (OMG) .

Those things are not necessarily their fault. The only thing they usually have to go by, is what they are told (by their peers - other Home owners). We are not their peers - in their eyes

There is a premise that exists outside of the construction community that "you don't want to pull a permit", "It's all about the city getting your money", "The city is going to bust your kahoonies", "You don't need a permit", etc, etc. These are basically "urban legends" that still are out there. (I am not saying that permited jobs won't cost more)

As far as some of the hair-brained things discussed at DIY, the ridiculous questions, the lack of insight, the stubborness by some.....It requires patience. They know not, what they do.

My advice to any contractors who posts on DIY Chatroom is to be patient, , bite/hold your tongue. People listen to doctors who talk to them in a gentle and informative manner. That is always the best approach when speaking to any home owner.

Don't force your knowledge on them, allow them to see the reasonablness, the experience, and the logic, of what you have to say. If they choose not to listen, then, so be it.

Remember that we have the privilege of living in a relatively free society. People have an obligation to abide by the laws. If, after having been informed, they choose to "do their own thing", there will inevitably be some kind of consequences for them to pay, at some point, in time.
Truer words seldom spoken.

Here's my problem with it.The HO decides to do the work themselves. NO permits, inspections, verification by a master craftsman. Then the house catches fire, falls down around their ears, whatever. Do they tell their friends, "Oh, I made a mistake when I did that."

NO, they say "Oh I hired a contractor and HE did it wrong."
This makes it look, once again, like the pro's are at fault.

People in general do not take fault for their own actions, they lay it at someone elses door when things go wrong.

Example: Last summer I built a sunroom for a very cooperative lady. Paid on time, stayed out of the way, few complaints. She purchased the permits and handled all inspections herself. Only real problem I had was that she wouldn't allow us to reinforce the floor of the existing deck we we converting. I outlined the problem she would have with the tile floor if she didn't reinforce the floor. Grout will pop if the floor isn't stable or has too much movement. Her reply, " Oh I will have my son to shore the floor up."

I happened to overhear her talking to a friend on the phone one day. " Oh, Hubbie and I built a beautiful sunroom onto the house, you should come out and see it."

No mention of my company at all. I approached her after completetion and asked if she would reference us to others. She replies, " Of course, just have them call me."

2 months later I had one of my potentials call her for reference.
"Yes, they did a wonderful job on my sunroom. I only had 1 problem with the experiance."

Potentials response, " What was the probelm?"

Reply, "Oh they have 1 tile that the grout keeps coming out from around it. I don't think they grouted it properly."

Geez, she never even mentioned it at 30 day check, 60 day check or 90 day check. But she mentions it to a potential that calls for a reference. Nevertheless she still calls me out for any work she wants to have done.

People WILL NEVER take responsability for their own actions.

How do I talk to HO's in the DIY chatrooms?
Like a salesman, Promote hiring a Licensed, Insured, Legal Contractor.
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Old 04-02-2008, 08:24 AM   #5
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Re: DIY Chatroom


What we are doing on these diy forums is teaching them how to do the job illegally ,and nothing more.If you help people with what is considered legal repairs,fine.Many ,many are being told flow-rates and sizing and things that took us years to master., and are not to be performed by an un-licensed individual.Then people have the nerve to talk about being slow while they're giving thier skill away.FOOLS.
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Old 04-02-2008, 08:27 AM   #6
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Re: DIY Chatroom


OMG!!!! I haven't been over to that side yet, so I thought I'd take a look. I AM IN AWWWWW. Someone asked if they can remove "just a few courses of bricks" from their basement wall. After all, "it's just under the window, and I can't see how that would be support" And some one told them, "sure, don't see why not" PLEASE, please Please tell me they don't go on some web site, ask if they can change the structure of their house, take some strangers answer and then go do the work themselves. I am in shock. I can't help to shake the picture in my mind of a guy dead in the basement while his wife says, "well, we only removed like 10 blocks".
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Old 04-02-2008, 08:32 AM   #7
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Re: DIY Chatroom


Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurieC View Post
OMG!!!! I haven't been over to that side yet, so I thought I'd take a look. I AM IN AWWWWW. Someone asked if they can remove "just a few courses of bricks" from their basement wall. After all, "it's just under the window, and I can't see how that would be support" And some one told them, "sure, don't see why not" PLEASE, please Please tell me they don't go on some web site, ask if they can change the structure of their house, take some strangers answer and then go do the work themselves. I am in shock. I can't help to shake the picture in my mind of a guy dead in the basement while his wife says, "well, we only removed like 10 blocks".
The guy that struck a match to find the gas leak in his basement got that answer from a DIY forum and used it. No joke, I was Visiting another (hyahoo sanswers) forum when this was dealt with.
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:20 AM   #8
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Re: DIY Chatroom


Atlantic is very correct with his observations and required patience.

Many think that, "Well, It's Just A Roof", so they can do it by themselves.

After they read through the responses and some past DIY'ers chime in to relay their own experiences, they start to reconsider the feasability of proceding without professional help.

I find that the most rewarding feeling that I can possibly accomplish on that site and many home owners specifically send direct e-mails to my attention due to my lengthy, yet informatively detailed posts on what needs to be done.

For those that can actually handle the task, I say, good for them. For life threatening procedures, I always convey the risks.

It is up to them if they want to spend a life in a wheel chair or worse, just to save a few hundred or thousand bucks.

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Old 04-02-2008, 12:54 PM   #9
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Re: DIY Chatroom


A professional contractor can offer some real life education and information of what really is involved, when it comes to various aspects of specific projects.

A knowledgable response can even encourage people to drop their DIY plans, "if" they realize how extensive a project is, and that it "may" be over their heads. Instead, they may even opt to consider hiring a professional contractor for the work.

Lastly, HO's can be educated as to the amount of work, fore-thought, planning, design, calculations, etc.... that are involved in the various trades. Many come to a higher level of appreciation and respect, for what it is, that we do.
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Old 04-02-2008, 02:15 PM   #10
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Re: DIY Chatroom


It is all about getting them to respect that your information is primarily focused on providing them with a good positive result and teaching them what to be aware of.

If they check back on previous posts of yours and see that you treat DIY questions with disdain and tell them, Hire A Pro, as your only advice, then your opinion will not carry much weight.

Conversely, with one ignorant HO exception, when I have suggested the Get A Pro advice, it is usually due to gathering a fuller understanding of their potential to adequately and safely handle the project. They will subsequently come to the conclusion and an agreement with that advice and then start asking for additional advice on how to select the desired professional for their project.

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Old 04-02-2008, 02:54 PM   #11
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Re: DIY Chatroom


I've tried that place, and it just reminds me
why people my age shouldn't have babies.
It's like being in a room full of screaming
three year olds, and I don't have the
patience for it anymore.
More power to those of you who try,
cause they will surely charge ahead
with or without advice....
it's the American way!
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Old 04-02-2008, 04:50 PM   #12
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Re: DIY Chatroom


And the bad attitudes that jump off the monitor at me, whew!

Tried offering advice a couple of times but after looking through some other posts, gave it up for a lost cause (kinda like P&R!) No point in trying to help folks when they're not interested in seeing any view but their own...and they're ungrateful for the FREE advice given.

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Old 04-02-2008, 05:04 PM   #13
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Re: DIY Chatroom


That same type of arrogance and same that level of stupidity has been displayed in these forums as well. Its not limited to just DIY folks. We've had folks in here trying to pull down structure and have someone size a beam to replace that structure for them over the internet, without pictures. Take a look at Framerman's signature. It appeared shortly after the thread I'm referring to disappeared.

So, beat the DIYers up all you want, just don't cast stones until you take a look around here. Pound for pound were not quite as dumb as they are, but I'd say we certainly approach their weight class sometimes.

I know that one some days, its doesn't get any dumber than me.
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:39 PM   #14
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Re: DIY Chatroom


Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-A View Post
That same type of arrogance and same that level of stupidity has been displayed in these forums as well. Its not limited to just DIY folks. We've had folks in here trying to pull down structure and have someone size a beam to replace that structure for them over the internet, without pictures. Take a look at Framerman's signature. It appeared shortly after the thread I'm referring to disappeared.

So, beat the DIYers up all you want, just don't cast stones until you take a look around here. Pound for pound were not quite as dumb as they are, but I'd say we certainly approach their weight class sometimes.

I know that one some days, its doesn't get any dumber than me.

You have a good point about newbies making terrible mistakes or others straying from there field of expertise.I can't speak for the others but my comments were based on giving un-licensed ,illegal installing individuals ,the nessesary info. to make light of the construction industry and do thier own work illegally.If your trying to teach them,let them go to school.The techniques ,that we are payed well to utilize,are from years of training.Educate them enough to know if thier contractor is good or half-ass.Don't educate them to take money off my plate and work ILLEGAL.I guarantee a lot of us who have just moved to new communities or opened new businesses frickin cringe over these DIY forums.Hell,it takes time to build a reputation and start net-working .Ther are sometimes days with-out a call,but I know Joe Blow home owner is able to do ALL his own plumbing ,ILLEGALLY,thanks to many fat-asses sitting around,feeling good about themselves about helping the world and killing thier own industry.{This is not directed to anyone here as I don't know you well enough.Double A ,for the most part I think you are a real decent person and you are great for this forum,but I have to dis-agree on this point].On a personal note,I hire auto mechanics from licensed shops,I hire electricians from a licensed shop.If I need a roof ,I'm calling the pros.Not because I can't do it,but because I can't do it as quickly and as well in some cases,and a job worth doing is a job worth doing well.I'm taking a break for a while,have fun with this.
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:46 PM   #15
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Re: DIY Chatroom


I have never had an accounting tell me how to file my taxes.
I have never had an mechanic tell me how to fix my transmission.
I have never had the plumber tell me how to change my water heater
I have never had a lawyer show me what cases or documents to file to defend myself in court.

I have taking their advice on how to make it easier for them to come in and do their jobs

I am not going to tell a homeowner how to do something that I think a licensed or experienced person should do to fix or repair there home
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
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Hell,it takes time to build a reputation and start net-working .Ther are sometimes days with-out a call,but I know Joe Blow home owner is able to do ALL his own plumbing ,ILLEGALLY,thanks to many fat-asses sitting around,feeling good about themselves about helping the world and killing thier own industry.{This is not directed to anyone here as I don't know you well enough.Double A ,for the most part I think you are a real decent person and you are great for this forum,but I have to dis-agree on this point].On a personal note,I hire auto mechanics from licensed shops,I hire electricians from a licensed shop.If I need a roof ,I'm calling the pros.Not because I can't do it,but because I can't do it as quickly and as well in some cases,and a job worth doing is a job worth doing well.I'm taking a break for a while,have fun with this.
I agree with you Threader, but as in anything, there is knowledge and there is skill. Knowing how to do it correctly is not the same know being fully qualified to do it correctly or having the skills.

Unfortunately, this isn't going to stop some folks and yes, some of us might lose business over it at one time or another, but I doubt we can point to even one unequivocal instance. I don't lose sleep over it, I just shake my head and move on.

I have noticed the number of posts these days are mostly about electrical problems, and not plumbing problems. I wonder why things are trending that way? Seems it used to be 3 plumbing to 1 of anything else.

BTW, I'm the same as you for those projects I don't wan't/can't do. I hire professionals all the time. For those things I don't hire out, I see as a pass time or hobby and enjoy doing them (like painting around the house). Its not a money thing, its a hands-on thing. I still enjoy the hands-on aspect and the "minds-on" aspect of doing my own thing and of helping others with their problems.

I try not to look at the economics of it, or I'd have never started posting here, only reading what I thought I needed to know and moving on. Much more efficient.

I guess its a fatal character flaw. I enjoy helping out and seeing others succeed.

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Old 04-02-2008, 06:08 PM   #17
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Re: DIY Chatroom


Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-A View Post
I agree with you Threader, but as in anything, there is knowledge and there is skill. Knowing how to do it correctly is not the same know being fully qualified to do it correctly or having the skills.

Unfortunately, this isn't going to stop some folks and yes, some of us might lose business over it at one time or another, but I doubt we can point to even one unequivocal instance. I don't lose sleep over it, I just shake my head and move on.

I have noticed the number of posts these days are mostly about electrical problems, and not plumbing problems. I wonder why things are trending that way? Seems it used to be 3 plumbing to 1 of anything else.

BTW, I'm the same as you for those projects I don't wan't/can't do. I hire professionals all the time. For those things I don't hire out, I see as a pass time or hobby and enjoy doing them (like painting around the house). Its not a money thing, its a hands-on thing. I still enjoy the hands-on aspect and the "minds-on" aspect of doing my own thing and of helping others with their problems.

I try not to look at the economics of it, or I'd have never started posting here, only reading what I thought I needed to know and moving on. Much more efficient.

I guess its a fatal character flaw. I enjoy helping out and seeing others succeed.

Somebody shoot me before I ask for a hug.
Double A I am not tryingt to beat a dead horse. I too am cursed with the flaw or helping people out. I will give advice to home owners or friends all the time. My only arguement here is giving people advice on work that could be fatal, requires a permit or knowledge of codes or should really be performed by qualified licensed person.
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:13 PM   #18
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Re: DIY Chatroom


Quote:
Originally Posted by rbsremodeling View Post
Double A I am not tryingt to beat a dead horse. I too am cursed with the flaw or helping people out. I will give advice to home owners or friends all the time. My only arguement here is giving people advice on work that could be fatal, requires a permit or knowledge of codes or should really be performed by qualified licensed person.
Good point.
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:30 PM   #19
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Re: DIY Chatroom


That was all I was pointing out guys,the fact about giving out information that leads folks to working ILLEGAL,with-out permits and subsequently with-out inspections.I would rather not fuss with the little stuff like toilet repairs and such,you almost feel bad taking the money ,and many times I discount a bit so they have a perception of value for the money.I feel better now.You're good guys.Now make my phone ring a little more !
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:47 PM   #20
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Re: DIY Chatroom


[QUOTE=Double-A;412807].....I guess its a fatal character flaw. I enjoy helping out and seeing others succeed.[QUOTE]

Barkeep!
Flaws for everyone in the house!

[QUOTE=Double-A;412807]Somebody shoot me before I ask for a hug.[QUOTE]

But....
Everyone wants to hug Snoopy!

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