Customer Has An Interesting Request...

DavidC

I don't think anyone is attacking your client. But as described (remember, we don't know her) she displays warning signs. They aren't always accurate, but every time someone nicks me I always say after that I saw it coming but wanted the work for one reason or another and knew we were better than that.

Wanting to improve our public image as an industry is admirable and should be encouraged. We can all do that by giving our best to every client and standing behind our word.

But your first duty is to protect your business or you may not be around to help improve our lot. That is probably why you are getting the response you are, we've seen the type over and again.

Be detailed and thorough in your propsal, use a balanced contract that withstands scrunity, promise less and deliver more. Give your prospective client some names and numbers of past clients for similar work that you feel will meet her standards. If she is genuine she will call at least somebody and they can sing your praises. On the side of caution again, I would ask at the contract signing if she called references. If the answer is no for any reason your guard should be up until the last check is in hand.

Good Luck
Dave

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Mike Finley

It's called a warranty. Why is this so hard to understand?

You don't have to say you will screw your drywall with screws spaced 1 every inch. All you have to do is perform work at industry standards. There is no such thing as a failure if the work is performed to industry standards. If there are extenuating circumstances that would cause someone to have to deviate and over compensate such as a soil problem for a foundation, guess what? It's still being built to industry standards cause the deviation is called for because of the conditions.

You don't have to make this any harder than it is. Include in your contract that you will build to industry standards and simply offer a warranty in writing. Nothing is more like standing behind your work then gues what? --- Standing behind your work!

You have to have measurable standards, you can't write a contract that covers every minute detail of every single step of building. That's what the manufacturers of individual products have done for you already with their products, that's what code is for. When you follow manufacturer installation insturctions and code you are building to where you should be. If you want to go beyond it then that is up to you. But you're insane to try to define every detail, cause you're setting yourself up for a non-payment or a lawsuit when you run into the wrong customer.

You define your building practices and then you stand behind them. No harder than that.

And by your logic then the other half are highly qualified at what they do. As I said already there is no shortage of excellent tradesman and remodeling companies available, however what separates the good from the bad and the mediocre is usually the higher costs involved with the better companies.

Show me a customer with a history of problems with home improvements and I guarantee you are dealing with a customer who creates their own problems by not hiring based on references, on checking insurances, on checking licenses, on checking affiliations and instead is seduced by price.

You're making this way harder than it needs to be.

Tiger

Without seeing & hearing the complaints it's hard to tell if the problem is with the HO or the contractors. Is it a nail pop or the drywall popping around a screw? Are plastic shims standard in plumbing? Was the drywall a caulk issue or a normal water issue? How many years before problems surfaced? Without seeing it these all seem like small, cosmetic issues. If so I'd be hearing the alarms of I'll be the next one she complains about no matter how good the work.

On the other hand, I've hired contractors & the first thing they try is substituting cheaper materials, backing out of promised work, not showing up on time, dragging out completion, etc. It's hard to find good contractors.

BSmart

I agree with Mike

Good work is good work! A warranty is a must and if you do good work to manufacturer specs, code, etc. you will be fine. If you do that, there won't be a problem.

Tinstaafl

I have to agree with Mike, who actually sums up the overall reaction here. But I would take issue with this:

If you really, really do the job right, there should be no problems with it for the foreseeable future, at least for a generation or so. If there are, that's a sorry reflection on "industry standards", or your interpretation/correction of them.

Ed the Roofer

Although I agree very wholeheartedly with the essence of Mikes Post, I like to offer up this JLC Forum members signature line to refute it just a bit.

You build to code, code is the minimum to pass this test. Congratulations your grade is a D-


Also, what the heck value do most people place in the actuality of a warranty?

What good are my competitors roofing warranties that are for 10-20 years when they have only been in business for less than 5 years at most?

The other points that Mike mentioned are far more material to the end results in a typical contractor/home owner transaction than any proferred warranty.

Ed

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Mike Finley

Lol, I was waiting for that. Believe me, as I was writing that I was waiting for the building to code is building to minimal standards. Don't put too much into the code issue. The point is the impossibility of trying to promise and define every miniscule step or process of how you are going to deliver a final product to a customer, and the issue of how you are openning a can of worms when the wrong customer comes along and picks you apart on a technicality. Sometimes the more you say the worse off you are going to be. That's the point of building to code and building to manufacturers standards. Your shingle manufaturers have a standard set of criteria to warranty their product, you can maybe tripple nail everything if you want, but bottom line is manufactuers have spent millions defining the proper standards for their products and if you follow them you're probably doing more than most already. But regardless when push comes to shove those standards and your fellow tradesman's standards are what it will come down to.

As for a warranty, I think maybe you need to look down the road. A customer who isn't fixed on price looks at a bigger picture of a company and a warranty in writing is one of those pieces especially if you have been around long enough to actually honor it.

Brock

Praise the Lord I am still in a position to interview and select the customers I want to work for, but with the direction of this economy I may have to start being less picky.

Having said that, this lady would not make my cut. There are times though that I would double the estimate if the prospective client was only "borderline" sketchy. If they bite at double the estimate price then you have the time to hold her hand and take thousnads of photos as others have suggested.

duckdown

It would be interesting if more of us on this forum actually discussed ways to change the perceptions of our customers. If customers are skeptical, then they will resort to the lowest bidder since we can't guarantee any consistent level of quality across the board. However, if we can increase quality amongst all trades then I believe our rates can rise.

I think I am the exception to the rule as I have never taken any form of shortcut on my work. Most recently, I was one nail short and could have used a screw, but my own ethics got in the way and called me to drive to Lowes (closest location) to purchase a box. I charge above average rates and have developed a reputation for not just completing a job in order to get paid but one that would make This Old House staff jealous. Of course, many of my activities do have a side effect that I sometimes don't deliver on time.

My mantra is that customers will forgive me if I am late as long as quality is high. In fact, this hasn't been an impediment to me getting lots of leads. Of course, they want me to solve this idiosyncracy...

Our model is a little different. We don't expect our customers to call. We personally take them to jobs we have worked on in the past. I have even brought customers to my own home to understand what home theater should feel like.

duckdown

The drywall was ruined due to the fact that when the contractor installed the shower door, they didn't put any caulk against the wall (the directions that come with the product indicate this) and therefore water was allowed to run down the wall and ruin the drywall.

I wouldn't call it a small cosmetic issue as to provide the fix would require removing the shower door, fixing the drywall, properly caulking, reinstalling everything and painting. I would take a day's work. She would also lose usage of the room until the caulk cured.

A common complaint amongst many customers I encounter is related to not showing up on time. We need to respect our customers and be prompt. I am thinking about a clause in our contract that would state penalties if our crew arrives late. Customers have a right to be annoyed in this regard.

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding contractors attempting to substitute cheaper materials. Cheaper materials doesn't always translate to cost but can be also based on convenience and using whatever they happen to have on hand.

DavidC

I think you will discover that most of the posters here are interested in improving our industry as a whole, both in perception by the public and the real meat - quality work at a fair price. Many customers do shop only on price until educated by a genuine contractor. Some won't be educated because the most for least is all they are interested in. Quality does cost more and needs to be sold.

If I needed 1 nail and a screw would do, I'd srew it. Our sacred cow is timeliness. Most clients don't know a whole lot about what and how we do, but they sure do know being late says my time is more imoportant than yours. On the nail vs screw, I'd substitute IF I thought it was appropiate and stand behind it.

We aren't installing home theaters so there is nothing to listen to. But we do get take our clients shopping to help with the selection process for fixtures and othere items of personal preference. This would be after the sale which included money to cover my time.

Bottom line for our business is say what you'll do, do what you say. If you stand behind your work your work will stand up for you. It's not rocket surgery.

Good Luck
Dave

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Mike Finley

If you stick around you'll see that the topic is discussed and has been discussed extensively.

That's absolutely ludicrous. Customer don't resort to the lowest bidder due to everybody sucks. 1st off everybody doesn't suck, so the condition can't even exist.

Customers resort to the lowest bidder because of a commodity mindset. What that means is if a customer believes that no matter who they hire the result will be the same then it makes no difference who I hire and it's just about the price (this is not what you are saying - it's the opposite - it's not saying that no matter who they hire the result will suck -- it's the opposite, it's the customer's belief that no matter who they hire the results will be the same, the job will be done correctly and I will be no worse the wear for the experience)

Ed the Roofer

That would make for a Great Pre-Job Customer Survey Question, or informative Consumer Advisory Pamphlet.

I would also throw in another question, like; As long as the job is done to meet "Minimum Building Code Standards", we will wind up being pleased with the results.

Then, another zapper to pre-condition them as to why certain aspects of their project might need additional specifications, or to show how often Minimum Code Standards are actually not met, and go unrealized until some time in the future.

Several other questions, or industry statistics could also be interspersed to refute that first held belief, which would give them additional food for thought, to base their selection more on the value issues, rather than only the pricing issues.

Ed

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Mike Finley

That's a tough one Ed. I've found that you're talking to a wall for the most part. There is something you can say and you can sway a bit here and there but most of that goes right through one ear and out the other.

I'll give you an example of two different customers:

Customer #1 is older, they have done a few remodeling projects in the past, they have owned more than one home, they have experienced a few remodeling projects from start to finish, these customers know that there is what the contractor says to make the sale, what the contractor does at the beginning of the job, what the contractor does in the middle of the job and what the contractor does at the end of the job.

Customer #2 is younger, these are the ones who have already picked out all the stuff they want to go into their remodel and they did it on the Internet. They haven't done much remodeling. They haven't experienced the remodeling project.

Customer #2's perception of how their project will go is all based purely on what those contractors they are talking to are telling them. They've never experienced the start, middle and ending of a project and realize what's involved.

Customer #2 can't see past the next 2 hours. They are right now focuses on the fun of picking out stuff, the fun of finding the right person to do the work, and the fun of dreaming about what it will be like when it is done.

They have no concept of the project actually being done, their house being invaded, living with the work, dealing with seeing if what they thought they were getting is what they are actually getting.

The long and the short to me is you can't put that experience into customers of type #2. They have to live it. No matter how much you explain to them they just have no clue what the hell you are talking about.

The conversation they have after you leave is -

"Man, that guy went on for like an hour about all these pitfalls and dangers of how we should be scared to death of hiring the wrong person."

"Yeah, I know, I liked the other guy who said we could get a solid platinum sink that would match my eyes! and he would get it to us at his cost!"

Tom Struble

one thing i wouldn't get involved in is a blame game.
let her show you the things that others have done and let her rant just dont knock the other guys work just tell her you dont know the situation the others where in and cant really judge them
emphasize the steps you are going to take to make sure her concerns
are met by your own work

Tiger

Well, that is much more descriptive of the problem than the 1st post.

I can't help but think that it would be helpful for homeowners to spend more time checking references and less time comparing prices. You get what you pay for.

DavidC

Wrapped up in a nutshell. It seems like it's always the industry at fault when the HO doesn't do their homework.

Good Luck
Dave

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duckdown

In the scenario I outlined, references were checked. The problems outlined didn't show lack of quality until at least a year later. Besides, checking references only gets you so far. Even the most horrific amongst us has good references.

The key is in spending proper time to educate customers such that they can recognize quality when they see it and to know what questions to ask other contractors who are bidding on their work.

samthedog

Although I agree with your comments it is also a catch 22. I have had a similar customer and wanted to assure her that all would be done to the highest standard. I didn't knock the other guy and I did it at a fair price. The problem was she expected me to explain every step to her as I did it and got shirty when I just went ahead and did my job. I explained everything at the start, then she wanted it all in writing. You will find this takes as much time as the actual job and at the end of the day they are not paying you to lecture them on how to do a remodel, they are just paying you to get it done. Don't get caught in the trap of becoming a 'parent' who is obligated to hold their hand. They are paying you for a service, they can check you references or even past jobs if they want, but what they can't do is expect you to spend twice as long because you are holding their hand while you work. My advice is run. If you do good work and this is not enough then get the hell out of there because trust me, it's not worth it.

hbelectric

Most of my lady customers ussually request sex, i am not lying either. Well they might not actually request it, but thats what they get. Back when i was single of course.