Credit

**joasis** · 10-12-2008, 09:19 PM

Is the "crisis" we are currently going through making anyone commit to doing something like be debt free? I have always admired Dave Ramsey and the straight talk about debt.....and how we literally become slaves to debt?

I made a plan a few years ago, and am close to making it happen....one of the largest steps was to stop using credit cards...and talk about tough...it was nearly as hard to quit smoking as it was to quit plastic.

I don't know if the current situation and work load will make a difference, but I still think I will get there...and then only my new home will be a debt...I can live with that.

The reason I was thinking about this was the response to Ed's post about Advanta and probably the sheer number of contractors that use credit cards....one guy says it is "free" money...well, I have yet to see anything that is truly free.

Paying off debt isn't as hard as one would think if you just hit it hard, and skip eating out a few times a month. makes a difference.

enforcer · 10-12-2008, 09:24 PM

Joasis,
if you do indeed stop using plastic you are a smart man. i threw in the proverbial towel as well and the current crisis is going to make aquirig credit that much tougher anyway so most people better start now.

**joasis** · 10-12-2008, 09:37 PM

If things get better in a few years, the idea would be to stick with the plan.....build reserves...or like I have done, buy real estate.

So you threw in the towel? You mean you are no longer in business?

ChainsawCharlie · 10-12-2008, 09:47 PM

I use my Paypal debit card for everything. I get 1.5% cash back with it. But in my line of work (landscaping & lawn maintenance), it's probably easier for me to get by without credit.

When i do landscape projects, I get money up front for materials and plants and submit final bill upon completion. 90% of my projects tend not to take more than a week to complete. On the maintenance side, I bill monthly, so I am never really that extended on what is owed me.

I have no heavy equipment, and for as little as I need it, it's more feasible for me to rent to what I need when I need it. The only debt I have is my truck at this point, and the only other equipment I ever financed was my bigger zero turn, and that was financed "in house" over six months.

I keep only two credit cards. One is emergency only, and the other has my phone bill on it as auto-pay, just to keep it active, if that's even necessary.

I went through the "in debt up to my eyebrows" thing once, and I will never do it again.

rbsremodeling · 10-12-2008, 09:54 PM

I am trying hard to eliminate the Credit card thing to.

I got burned bad early in the year with a few jobs going belly up owing us money. Talk about a wake up call.

Now it is cash only. CC for emergency use. I am paying down the balances and lines of credit. I hope to be credit/debit free by next summer

MALCO.New.York · 10-12-2008, 10:05 PM

The Credit Card thing is one of the BEST things a person can do. Use them for EVERYTHING. From the Coffee and Doughnut at KK or DD in the Morning to the "what was needed for HomeCheapo to finish the job today" purchases.

Why?????

Points. Flier Miles. % back Annually. Whatever.

The ONLY trick is PAYING it in TOTAL EVERY Month. DO NOT buy that which you can NOT pay for tomorrow if necessary.

I Charge, personal account, at least $1800.00 EVERY Month. I have so many Damn Flier Miles, I will NEVER use them.

If you use the card as a SUBSTITUTE and ONLY a SUBSTITUTE for the cash available to you today, all will be well.

Anyone who claims to have a Credit Card Issue is fooling themselves. They have a SPENDING problem. A lack of restraint and discipline.

orson · 10-12-2008, 10:11 PM

I agree with Malco. We use credit extensively but pay off balances at the end of the month.

It's really nice having a credit score over 800 and knowing you can make anything happen anytime anywhere from a credit/borrowing standpoint.

It's a matter of discipline and having a good payables person/system.

rbsremodeling · 10-12-2008, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orson

I agree with Malco. We use credit extensively but pay off balances at the end of the month.

It's really nice having a credit score over 800 and knowing you can make anything happen anytime anywhere from a credit/borrowing standpoint.

It's a matter of discipline and having a good payables person/system.

I agree with you and Malco except most people don't pay them off monthly. Very few people use the cards wisely.

MALCO.New.York · 10-12-2008, 10:18 PM

And YES! You WILL gain a GREAT credit score by paying it off every Month. And Creditors DO like this sort of Customer because they make points on the front-end from the Merchant on EVERY transaction.

My Credit Score when from "dismal" to "Holy Cow" CitiCorp just offered me an "open line of credit" just for being Alive! That, as Orson has stated, is a nice place to be.

rbsremodeling · 10-12-2008, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MALCO.New.York

And YES! You WILL gain a GREAT credit score by paying it off every Month. And Creditors DO like this sort of Customer because they make points on the front-end from the Merchant on EVERY transaction.

My Credit Score when from "dismal" to "Holy Cow" CitiCorp just offered me an "open line of credit" just for being Alive! That, as Orson has stated, is a nice place to be.

I know it is scarey. I have 300k in lines of credit/credit cards available to me and I barely made it out of high school

**Teetorbilt** · 10-12-2008, 10:50 PM

My family was based in Quaker roots and I didn't step out into credit until 1989. It didn't take long to figure out what a poor decision that was. My grandfather and father used to say that if you have to borrow you really don't NEED it.

I DO have a mortgage on my house. First time ever and lookee what I stepped into. I did buy/finance right and will be OK until the market drops below 3500

Mike Finley · 10-12-2008, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joasis

Is the "crisis" we are currently going through making anyone commit to doing something like be debt free? I have always admired Dave Ramsey and the straight talk about debt.....and how we literally become slaves to debt?

I used to subscribe to the no debt mantra as much as possible, but after doing it for awhile I realized that it's not the best way to get ahead.

For instance I was able to pay off my home and own it free and clear, this was 2 homes ago and about 7 years ago. It is pretty cool to have no mortgage, and it's pretty cool to not have a mortgage payment. But there are a couple of things that can happen to you.

#1 Having smaller obligations can make you get lazy, if you don't need a lot of money you won't make a lot of money, it's too easy to let things slide and not be agressive in your business when you don't need the money.

#2 And this is more important is having a house paid for means you have all that money tied up. Imagine paying off a $200,000 house, that means over a period of time you have had to have had $200,000 in cash pass through your hands and to your mortgage company.

So the question becomes what could you do with $200,000 in cash better than to just not have a mortgage payment at a very low 6% interest rate?????

This is the crux of the issue of being debt free. I don't really believe anymore that debt free is the best way. In control of your debt and having smart debt I think is much better.

Cash is king. We are all going to most likely see the stock market rebound this week or the next to some degree. Would it be better to have your house paid for and no cash or have a mortgage and put $25,000 into the market and see it turn into $40,000?

Would it be better to have your house paid off or have $50,000 in cash to buy a second piece of real estate and have two pieces of real estate appreciate?

W-Tinc · 10-13-2008, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joasis

Is the "crisis" we are currently going through making anyone commit to doing something like be debt free? I have always admired Dave Ramsey and the straight talk about debt.....and how we literally become slaves to debt?

I made a plan a few years ago, and am close to making it happen....one of the largest steps was to stop using credit cards...and talk about tough...it was nearly as hard to quit smoking as it was to quit plastic.

I don't know if the current situation and work load will make a difference, but I still think I will get there...and then only my new home will be a debt...I can live with that.

The reason I was thinking about this was the response to Ed's post about Advanta and probably the sheer number of contractors that use credit cards....one guy says it is "free" money...well, I have yet to see anything that is truly free.

Paying off debt isn't as hard as one would think if you just hit it hard, and skip eating out a few times a month. makes a difference.

Joasis...what exactly about cashback rewards are you having trouble understanding?
Its pretty simple, if I spend an average of $500/week on gas, which I do, then at 5% I get $25/week added to my cc account. In little red print just like the payments I make. Simple as that, $100ish a month not counting other rewards for different items. If thats not free money I don't know what is

Like others have said you have to take it for what its worth, credit is not debt unless you make it so

.

**AtlanticWBConst** · 10-13-2008, 07:47 AM

We do a large amount of work for a sector of companie's that averages owing us about $20K to $30K every month. We have to float that using credit (business credit).

The recent events have woken us up, to putting money, out of our business reserves, to do more "self-financing" of the amounts, rather than rely on business credit.

With our supplier acounts: We have been paying materials off before we get the bills. I even sent out extra amounts, on a few payments, knowing that we would be ordering more materials from the specific suppliers very soon.

My goal: trying, not only to keep up with bills, before they become a "debt",but also pre-paying when possible.

Jay brings up a good reminder, never over-extend yourself, whether in your personal finances, or in your business finances.

Lastly: Remember to keep current with your invoicing, payment schedules, work change orders, etc... I have been getting invoices out asap. I have one now ready for work that only needs another load of crushed stone to be done. As soon as that is out to the site, the bill is flying out the door...

Now, more than ever, you should NOT be too busy, to keep your payroll and invoicing completely up to date.

MALCO.New.York · 10-13-2008, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlanticWBConst

We do a large amount of work for a sector of companie's that averages owing us about $20K to $30K every month. We have to float that using credit (business credit).

The recent events have woken us up, to putting money, out of our business reserves, to do more "self-financing" of the amounts, rather than rely on business credit.

With our supplier acounts: We have been paying materials off before we get the bills. I even sent out extra amounts, on a few payments, knowing that we would be ordering more materials from the specific suppliers very soon.

My goal: trying, not only to keep up with bills, before they become a "debt", but also pre-paying when possible.

Jay brings up a good reminder, never over-extend yourself, whether in your personal finances, or in your business finances.

This is PROPER Credit Management.

**joasis** · 10-13-2008, 07:52 AM

It is this simple...we see the signs on gas pumps, and now in stores. A "cash" price or discount price for using cash....not using plastic because they do make money from both ends.

The 1 or 2% "reward" money you get back, you have already paid on the front end. If they were actually "giving" money away, it would have to end.

MALCO.New.York · 10-13-2008, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joasis

It is this simple...we see the signs on gas pumps, and now in stores. A "cash" price or discount price for using cash...

VERY Illegal. It is Exclusive and Discriminatory.

Any Merchant that says, posts or institutes this manner of transaction is in violation of the Law AND their Merchant Contract with the Credit Companies.

"We do not accept Bills larger than 20.00" or the like, also VERY, Federally Illegal.

Not this fact changes ANYTHING!

Cdat · 10-13-2008, 08:04 AM

Well, I get zero percent interest, always pay on time and get cash back. How I lose, I can't figure out. The card companies are gambling that I screw up and miss a payment and it's worth it to them that I do screw up. Haven't yet. Hopefully never will. I've made quite a bit off of them. Just like with the loan practices out there right now, they're betting on your frucking up. The smart people make money....the other people lose it. That is life...

MALCO.New.York · 10-13-2008, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cdat

Well, I get zero percent interest, always pay on time and get cash back. How I lose, I can't figure out. The card companies are gambling that I screw up and miss a payment and it's worth it to them that I do screw up. Haven't yet. Hopefully never will. I've made quite a bit off of them. Just like with the loan practices out there right now, they're betting on your frucking up. The smart people make money....the other people lose it. That is life...

Where the REALLY hope you screw up is on "Late Payment"!!!

$39.00 penalty. Interest on the ADB (Average Daily Balance) for the PAST Month AND Interest on ANY new purchases for the FOLLOWING Month!

It is a MAJOR Fustercluck, a Late Payment!!!

**joasis** · 10-13-2008, 08:09 AM

While Mike does have a viable model for using equity and assets to get ahead, but I was really talking generalities here. If you use credit cards exclusively to not use cash, or checks, and pay them off every month, that is a sound decision...simply because a crisis means you have an automatic deferment if needed...a minimum payment.

I know a guy who builds homes on credit cards, no kidding! He probably has 4 or 5....floats the balances and when he sells a home, pays off...I don't know how his rates are now, but at the time I heard about it, he was going it on an average of 4% interest....if he didn't pay it off every month, and by rolling the balances, he beat that.....now what if he doesn't sell a home? I don't know...he may have the cash to pay out....

What I do is buy lots, and acreages for cash. I borrow to build, then sell. Not aggressive like Mike is doing, but I am ok with it...I also know that I detested looking at credit card statements and seeing my money gone....send a check when the statement shows up...15 days early and then get a notice the payment was late....and interest went up. Then you see stories on the news about banks that "hold" checks to be able to make these charges and end the introductory interest rates. The only way to beat those practices was to pay online and then risk your personal information when someone hacks their system.....yes, it is a scam. One former employee even said that they put out stories about personal information being leaked so people would not pay online, since that defeated them from being able to hike charges, which increases their profits.

When I need to borrow, I do business with a family owned bank......several months ago, I forgot my equipment loan payment.....2 weeks later, my banker called me personally and asked me "did you forget anything"....laughing....sure did, just draft it out of my account...he said he knew it. No letter, no late fees, a few bucks in interest.

10-12-2008, 09:37 PM	#3
joasis View Profile joasis Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (6,055) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hennessey, Oklahoma Posts: 6,055	Re: Credit If things get better in a few years, the idea would be to stick with the plan.....build reserves...or like I have done, buy real estate. So you threw in the towel? You mean you are no longer in business? __________________ Ladwig Construction Hennessey, Oklahoma 405 853 1563 Ladwig Insulation & Construction Services Serving Oklahoma Statewide

10-12-2008, 09:47 PM	#4
ChainsawCharlie View Profile ChainsawCharlie Crash Test Dummy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,206) Photos (1) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Crash Test Dummy Trade: Landscaping Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Kauai Posts: 2,206	Re: Credit I use my Paypal debit card for everything. I get 1.5% cash back with it. But in my line of work (landscaping & lawn maintenance), it's probably easier for me to get by without credit. When i do landscape projects, I get money up front for materials and plants and submit final bill upon completion. 90% of my projects tend not to take more than a week to complete. On the maintenance side, I bill monthly, so I am never really that extended on what is owed me. I have no heavy equipment, and for as little as I need it, it's more feasible for me to rent to what I need when I need it. The only debt I have is my truck at this point, and the only other equipment I ever financed was my bigger zero turn, and that was financed "in house" over six months. I keep only two credit cards. One is emergency only, and the other has my phone bill on it as auto-pay, just to keep it active, if that's even necessary. I went through the "in debt up to my eyebrows" thing once, and I will never do it again.

10-12-2008, 09:54 PM	#5
rbsremodeling View Profile rbsremodeling Professional Instigator Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (6,872) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Professional Instigator Trade: Design Build Remodeling Contractor DC MD Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Washington, DC/ Maryland Posts: 6,872	Re: Credit I am trying hard to eliminate the Credit card thing to. I got burned bad early in the year with a few jobs going belly up owing us money. Talk about a wake up call. Now it is cash only. CC for emergency use. I am paying down the balances and lines of credit. I hope to be credit/debit free by next summer __________________

10-12-2008, 10:05 PM	#6
MALCO.New.York View Profile MALCO.New.York Handle It! Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (9,369) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Handle It! Trade: Everything The Union Guys Do Not Want To Do Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY ~ Haverford, PA Posts: 9,369	Re: Credit The Credit Card thing is one of the BEST things a person can do. Use them for EVERYTHING. From the Coffee and Doughnut at KK or DD in the Morning to the "what was needed for HomeCheapo to finish the job today" purchases. Why????? Points. Flier Miles. % back Annually. Whatever. The ONLY trick is PAYING it in TOTAL EVERY Month. DO NOT buy that which you can NOT pay for tomorrow if necessary. I Charge, personal account, at least $1800.00 EVERY Month. I have so many Damn Flier Miles, I will NEVER use them. If you use the card as a SUBSTITUTE and ONLY a SUBSTITUTE for the cash available to you today, all will be well. Anyone who claims to have a Credit Card Issue is fooling themselves. They have a SPENDING problem. A lack of restraint and discipline. __________________ Something to One may be Nothing to another! Ultimate Wisdom--------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW-cnizLDEE

10-12-2008, 10:11 PM	#7
orson View Profile orson Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,328) Photos (12) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Kitchen & Bath Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Millersville, PA Posts: 1,328	Re: Credit I agree with Malco. We use credit extensively but pay off balances at the end of the month. It's really nice having a credit score over 800 and knowing you can make anything happen anytime anywhere from a credit/borrowing standpoint. It's a matter of discipline and having a good payables person/system. __________________ Lancaster Remodeling Contractor - Lancaster Remodeling Kitchen & Bath Remodeling PA- Bathroom Remodeling Lancaster PA Custom Kitchen Remodeling PA - Ruby Construction FaceBook-Lancaster Bathroom Remodeling

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10-12-2008, 09:19 PM	#1
joasis View Profile joasis Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (6,055) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hennessey, Oklahoma Posts: 6,055	Credit Is the "crisis" we are currently going through making anyone commit to doing something like be debt free? I have always admired Dave Ramsey and the straight talk about debt.....and how we literally become slaves to debt? I made a plan a few years ago, and am close to making it happen....one of the largest steps was to stop using credit cards...and talk about tough...it was nearly as hard to quit smoking as it was to quit plastic. I don't know if the current situation and work load will make a difference, but I still think I will get there...and then only my new home will be a debt...I can live with that. The reason I was thinking about this was the response to Ed's post about Advanta and probably the sheer number of contractors that use credit cards....one guy says it is "free" money...well, I have yet to see anything that is truly free. Paying off debt isn't as hard as one would think if you just hit it hard, and skip eating out a few times a month. makes a difference. __________________ Ladwig Construction Hennessey, Oklahoma 405 853 1563 Ladwig Insulation & Construction Services Serving Oklahoma Statewide

10-12-2008, 09:24 PM	#2
enforcer View Profile enforcer Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (639) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: windows-siding Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 639	Re: Credit Joasis, if you do indeed stop using plastic you are a smart man. i threw in the proverbial towel as well and the current crisis is going to make aquirig credit that much tougher anyway so most people better start now.

10-12-2008, 10:18 PM	#9
MALCO.New.York View Profile MALCO.New.York Handle It! Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (9,369) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Handle It! Trade: Everything The Union Guys Do Not Want To Do Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY ~ Haverford, PA Posts: 9,369	Re: Credit And YES! You WILL gain a GREAT credit score by paying it off every Month. And Creditors DO like this sort of Customer because they make points on the front-end from the Merchant on EVERY transaction. My Credit Score when from "dismal" to "Holy Cow" CitiCorp just offered me an "open line of credit" just for being Alive! That, as Orson has stated, is a nice place to be. __________________ Something to One may be Nothing to another! Ultimate Wisdom--------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW-cnizLDEE

10-12-2008, 10:50 PM	#11
Teetorbilt View Profile Teetorbilt Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (10,475) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Residential Contractor Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Jensen Beach, FL Posts: 10,475	Re: Credit My family was based in Quaker roots and I didn't step out into credit until 1989. It didn't take long to figure out what a poor decision that was. My grandfather and father used to say that if you have to borrow you really don't NEED it. I DO have a mortgage on my house. First time ever and lookee what I stepped into. I did buy/finance right and will be OK until the market drops below 3500 __________________ You can't solve you're problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems. Albert Einstein

10-13-2008, 07:47 AM	#14
AtlanticWBConst View Profile AtlanticWBConst Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,702) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Lic. GC/Remodr - Commercial/Residential/Industrial Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New England Posts: 2,702	Re: Credit We do a large amount of work for a sector of companie's that averages owing us about $20K to $30K every month. We have to float that using credit (business credit). The recent events have woken us up, to putting money, out of our business reserves, to do more "self-financing" of the amounts, rather than rely on business credit. With our supplier acounts: We have been paying materials off before we get the bills. I even sent out extra amounts, on a few payments, knowing that we would be ordering more materials from the specific suppliers very soon. My goal: trying, not only to keep up with bills, before they become a "debt",but also pre-paying when possible. Jay brings up a good reminder, never over-extend yourself, whether in your personal finances, or in your business finances. Lastly: Remember to keep current with your invoicing, payment schedules, work change orders, etc... I have been getting invoices out asap. I have one now ready for work that only needs another load of crushed stone to be done. As soon as that is out to the site, the bill is flying out the door... Now, more than ever, you should NOT be too busy, to keep your payroll and invoicing completely up to date. __________________ - Build Well - Last edited by AtlanticWBConst; 10-13-2008 at 07:57 AM.

10-13-2008, 07:52 AM	#16
joasis View Profile joasis Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (6,055) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hennessey, Oklahoma Posts: 6,055	Re: Credit It is this simple...we see the signs on gas pumps, and now in stores. A "cash" price or discount price for using cash....not using plastic because they do make money from both ends. The 1 or 2% "reward" money you get back, you have already paid on the front end. If they were actually "giving" money away, it would have to end. __________________ Ladwig Construction Hennessey, Oklahoma 405 853 1563 Ladwig Insulation & Construction Services Serving Oklahoma Statewide

10-13-2008, 08:04 AM	#18
Cdat View Profile Cdat egotistical prick Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,633) Photos (9) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity egotistical prick Trade: Wood Inlay Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Swartz Creek, Michigan Posts: 2,633	Re: Credit Well, I get zero percent interest, always pay on time and get cash back. How I lose, I can't figure out. The card companies are gambling that I screw up and miss a payment and it's worth it to them that I do screw up. Haven't yet. Hopefully never will. I've made quite a bit off of them. Just like with the loan practices out there right now, they're betting on your frucking up. The smart people make money....the other people lose it. That is life...

10-13-2008, 08:09 AM	#20
joasis View Profile joasis Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (6,055) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hennessey, Oklahoma Posts: 6,055	Re: Credit While Mike does have a viable model for using equity and assets to get ahead, but I was really talking generalities here. If you use credit cards exclusively to not use cash, or checks, and pay them off every month, that is a sound decision...simply because a crisis means you have an automatic deferment if needed...a minimum payment. I know a guy who builds homes on credit cards, no kidding! He probably has 4 or 5....floats the balances and when he sells a home, pays off...I don't know how his rates are now, but at the time I heard about it, he was going it on an average of 4% interest....if he didn't pay it off every month, and by rolling the balances, he beat that.....now what if he doesn't sell a home? I don't know...he may have the cash to pay out.... What I do is buy lots, and acreages for cash. I borrow to build, then sell. Not aggressive like Mike is doing, but I am ok with it...I also know that I detested looking at credit card statements and seeing my money gone....send a check when the statement shows up...15 days early and then get a notice the payment was late....and interest went up. Then you see stories on the news about banks that "hold" checks to be able to make these charges and end the introductory interest rates. The only way to beat those practices was to pay online and then risk your personal information when someone hacks their system.....yes, it is a scam. One former employee even said that they put out stories about personal information being leaked so people would not pay online, since that defeated them from being able to hike charges, which increases their profits. When I need to borrow, I do business with a family owned bank......several months ago, I forgot my equipment loan payment.....2 weeks later, my banker called me personally and asked me "did you forget anything"....laughing....sure did, just draft it out of my account...he said he knew it. No letter, no late fees, a few bucks in interest. __________________ Ladwig Construction Hennessey, Oklahoma 405 853 1563 Ladwig Insulation & Construction Services Serving Oklahoma Statewide

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