Contracts Before Permits

y0manda

I have a homeowner who wants me to build him a detached 2 car garage with washer & dryer, meaning water,gas, water heater, waste lines & vent, aside from just electric. and a full bath remodel inside his house. He is asking for the contract which he can review and we can adjust based on our agreements, but before this should I have him front money for the permit fees before any contract is written/signed?
Also do you guys put a contingent clause on your contracts if so and normally how much for this scope of work.
I really appreciate any positive replies.

marc

Is this a REAL question or is this a joke?

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Marc

thom

OK Yo, you say you're a contractor BUT, you don't understand the basics that most homeowners know. Surely a second year apprentice would know something about permits.

Permits are included in the contract and are pulled prior to the beginning of work. How/why would you pull a permit on a job that might not be done, might not be done by your company?

What do you mean by contingent?

When I did remodel, my contracts included everything, spelled out in detail. Before I sign a contract I know what I'm building and how much it will cost. For things that they pick out, I give them an allowance. This allowance must be adequate to buy a decent, but not top-of-the-line product.

People occasionally ask, "What if you finish and it costs you less than you thought?" My answer, "You will never know, neither will you know if it costs me more than I thought". It's your job to price it correctly and to foresee everything that a competent contractor (not homeowner) would foresee.

Celtic

What he "wants" does not mean that he will "agree" to your terms(contract).
Why should he front ANY money w/o an agreement signed by BOTH parties?

He should be given time to review the contract which should include all aspects of the job, including, but not limited to:
- scope
- timeline
- price
- materials
- etc

If you guys can't agree on some points, he may decide to go w/someone else who will do what he wants at a price he can tolerate ~ and vice versa of course....then what happens to the permit money? Will the building dept. return it

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y0manda

He has already agreed to my price of 4 other contractors that gave him bids (which were all close per homeowner) . I have done a lot for him, taken him to other jobs I had recently completed and a list of referrals. The only reason why I'm asking "should I pull permits before the contact" is I don't want to end up remodeling his bathroom for free because the city is making us use more expensive material/lumber that wasn't figured into the contract. I know this is a simple garage but I am asking this as if it were any of your jobs.

y0manda

So you never had any contingent clauses in your contract? unforseen problems which may occure will be @ homeowners expense? We do not have x-ray vision that can see inside the walls and under the concrete, for all I know he could be sitting on an old landfill that is covered up with 2" of filldirt that isnt suitable for a garage w/o major excavation/dirt fill. Would you just bite it knowing there is are possibilities of other unforeseen expenses because you have too much pride?

Mike Finley

I think there might be a language barrior here or something.

If you want to keep it simple:

Write your contract + permits & fees.
Sign the contract.
Pull the permit.
Add the permit fee to the first progress payment.

Write your contract spelling out exactly what you are going to do with a hidden defect clause. If you get into the remodel and you find something that wasn't covered, it's a change order.

NOW - as far as the building dept requiring you to do something that you don't know about. That's why you are in business. It is assumed you are the professional here. It's up to you to know to a very large degree what is expected to meet code and have included it in your original price already.

If right now you're planning on running garden hose in the walls for the hot & cold feeds and you suddenly find out by the inspector that he isn't cool with that, then your customer shouldn't have to pay anymore for your incompetence. That wouldn't be a hidden defect or as you call it a contingency. They are totally different. You very well might be able to BS your way through it with your customers and they wouldn't know the difference, but that will catch up with you sooner or later.

y0manda

Mike, I appreciate your feedback. I have just finished talking w/ the homeowner and going to meet with him later this evening. One more question. the building and safety dept. had free plans for a detached 2 car garage. but was the wrong size. I guess as you stated I should already know this from my professional experience but Should I have an architect draw up a set up plans for this garage? before the contract? The fee for the plans is about 200-300$ depending on the time it takes him.
again thanks for your responses.

thom

It's not about pride, though I certainly have my share. It's about professionalism and, in some ways, about practicality. On most jobs the homeowner would be unable to come up with substantial amounts of additional funds to cover substantial unforeseen expenses.

I've made mistakes and I've eaten them. 10+ years ago a common mistake remodelers made was failure to include a required electric service upgrade. From my perspective this was their failure. They knew, or should have known, to check. They failed to check and then complained about being stuck with the cost.

My post defined reasonable as what a competent contractor would do. That would likely be the legal standard a court would apply if it came to that. If it's something that would not be forseen by a competent contractor, there is probably a reason to charge more. If your contract is very specific concerning what you will provide, this should not be an issue. Ie: construct garage (see detailed plans signed by contractor and owner) in appropriate location as directed by owner.

Teetorbilt

Here, a building of that size would have to have plans signed off by an arch. or eng. and it's just easier to let them do it all. Another plus is that professional plans sail through B&Z while DIY gets much closer scrutiny and are often rejected once or twice.

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You can't solve you're problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems.

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Driftwood

Call For The Final Inspection Before You Start. Also Final Payment Always Before He Signs Contract. Please Also Post After Pix Before He Changes His Mind.

Teetorbilt

Drift, All Caps Can Be Really Obnoxious!

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You can't solve you're problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems.

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Driftwood

That's Why I Do It ! Quit Yer Snivlin

Grumpyplumber

I just skimmed this thread, but any job that needs a contract shouldn't be a problem for the customer to review prior to signing, by either party.
As for having to pay an architect...that shoulda been figured into the estimate along with a markup for your time, if it wasn't figured into the original, there should be a clause stating any additional changes per local authority are not included in pricing on estimate.
In my trade that comes up often when the inspector decides the existing plumbing is a hazard and needs to be updated, its even written into our code that it's the inspectors responsibility to inform the homeowner within 48 hours.
For us it's "bonus" work.

y0manda

Thanks driftwood your a ***x ******x.

Mike Finley

I wouldn't, not unless A) you are ready to eat that fee if for one of 100 reasons the job falls through, or B) your architect will draw them up contingent on getting paid if the project goes through.

I don't spend a dime, nor advise anybody else to spend a single dime until you have a signed contract in hand, a deposit and it's 3 days later.

If you have a really good handle on the final costs for the architect just add those costs into your fee and include it in the contract. Or if you can't or don't want to do that, just make it contract + permits + fees (architectural). Most customers will want a reasonable estimate of what those fee might amount to. Just be careful with any number you say, most customers tend to only hear and remember the lower one in a range.

Celtic

Should YOU have the plans drawn up?

I would say NO ...let the customer select an architect and let THEM pay to have to it drawn up (first choice)....

OR ...

have them pay YOU to select an architect (second choice) ~ this would be a contract SEPARATE from the actual job..it may not happen...or it may happen, but your not invited...or maybe you do get the job. Whichever way, you need to be compensated.

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Driftwood

Where in the real world ,would an arch.draw up a set of plans for $200-$300?
Sorry ,been building for 45 years . This thread started out strange,and is getting stranger. I may be Dumb ,but I know when someone Isn't a Cont.

mtp

:w/stupid

Celtic

Again???

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