[Nathan]

I've been hearing a lot of complaints recently about the number of people selling products and services to contractors on this site. It's been a growing issue and I'd like to open it up for discussion.

Background:
We have some of the toughest standards of any forum out there. Unlike most sites we don't allow anyone (other than contractors) to link to themselves, talk about products and services they offer, or really do anything on this site promotion wise. You can read all our ad rules here: http://www.contractortalk.com/faq.ph...aq_advertising

We also require that you either be a professional contractor or someone who works directly in the industry in order to join this site. I check every registration as they go through and ban or delete any new member that doesn't list a valid trade with their registration.

Problem:
These rules have worked great for us for over 5 years now and I'm not about to change the "Pros Only" requirement that makes this place great. But I do think there is a greater question of what exactly constitutes a "Pro" and what qualifies as self promotion.

The fact is that I've let the rules on this slide a little in the past year because some of the people joining are providing great info for the site and because that info is so great I tend to feel a link in a signature is fair. For example some users provide marketing suggestions, website help, or even some light Quickbooks training. These are the people who work in the industry but aren't necessarily professional contractors.

On the other side we have some members who are less subtle in their approach. They go beyond just adding a link to their signature and actually talk about their services in their posts, tell people to contact them, talk bad about their competition, or give half solutions in hopes that people will contact them for more info.

I think some of this has taken place because I haven't either enforced or revised the rules the way I need to but the question remains what is (or should be) allowed and what is not.

Possible Solutions:
#1. The first solution would be to go back to our current rules and start enforcing them better. No self promotion of any kind unless your a local contractor. People in supporting roles to contractors (manufactures, business coaches, marketing consultants, Quickbooks trainers, web gurus, etc..) could join the site but never link to themselves, mention their products or services, or tell people to contact them.

Positive: This is the easiest solution because it's how this site has been run for many years and it's easy to judge what is allowed and what is not.
Negative: We lose out on some good insight because frankly some people won't participate if they can't link to themselves and get at least a little self promotion out of it.

#2. The next possible solution is one that I've been testing out on our smaller trade sites (PaintTalk.com, ElectricianTalk.com, PlumbingZone.com, Etc...) and it's worked well. We allow people in supporting roles to link to themselves in their signature lines with a simple company name, phone number, and link... and then they take part in meaningful discussions on the site but can not promote themselves in the posts in any way. So, they can never tell people to "See my signature" or tell people about their services. You can read through these rules here: http://www.plumbingzone.com/faq.php?...qs#faq_adrules

Positive: We get added input from some very knowledgeable individuals.
Negative: Some users will be tempted to cross the line and when they do it may be harder to tell who is legit and who is not. For example someone making a lot of posts on the site that don't have a lot of content just so their link gets out there. There are really endless ways where this could be a head ache but it may be worth the effort. Who knows.

#3. Your Turn. What are your thoughts? Any suggestions on how to fix this problem? Who do you want to be here and what do you think should be allowed? Please respond to this thread with any ideas and feedback you have.



One last note. In talking about this with several members I keep hearing suggestions that we allow some people to do certain things and not others. I can tell you this wont work and except than allowing contractors more rights than people selling to contractors we wont be making exceptions. We need to come up with a set of rules and apply them evenly to everyone.

Thanks for your input guys

[Ed the Roofer]

I feel a case by case scrutiny is still the best method. Additional rules may pigeon-hole the necessity to ban someone not taking extreme advantage of the collective group on this forum.

I find Publisher and Seth to be low profile marketing guys, even though their is the inherent secondary intent to get members to their sites, but their content they share seems to always be appropriate.

That new guy Mike mentioned probably won't last long. His Direct Marketing Questions thread is viewed as it should be by the knowledgeable contractors, although some novice may find his information to be the most resourceful content they have ever found, only due to a lack of previous research.

The other guy recently was chased away by a collective group effort, although I can emphasize with their efforts.

One good way to check up on them, like many already know, is to Google their User Name and see if their only content on other forums and sites are repetitive and only advertorial in nature.

Do the ones who get called out gain any positive exposure in the long run? Once they are uprooted, their presence here becomes a dubious back-link to their ultimate efforts, which in turn winds up just costing them dearly by devoting their time and efforts on this site, to ultimately have to eliminate any links they directed towards their postings on this site.

I still think that some can be a very valuable resource. Many, such as Nets/Damion and Publisher have provided this forum membership with significant and very useful links to other ideas and products, so we could be cutting off our noses to spite our face.


Ed

[dirt diggler]

so this means no ****ography ... still ???

[woodmagman]

I, like most am here to gain information and enjoy the environment, a coffee shop without the pretty waitress to tease or for some to hit on, if a professional has information pertinent to my situation and they are willing to engage in a thread sharing this knowledge then that is cool by me…fill the threads with crap and I know a few good old boys here that have the ability to call them out…this is a site for contractor to meet, shoot the breeze and share content…my house is always open to guests as is my business in real life, waste my time and try to take something that has not been offered and you are out on your ear….IMMO

[PA woodbutcher]

MartyCD has also been very helpful and when searching for users of Correct Deck I really couldn't find any cases that he could have been construed as a marketer or salesman.

I would also like to take the opportunity to thank you for your diligence in matters such as these

[George Z]

For all the reasons Ed mentioned, I would hate to lose some of the more
"respectful" contributors and what they bring to the table.
At the same time, case by case may be very subjective and too much to ask of the moderators.
Eventualy it would become unfair, as a more re-fined and experienced marketing professional, will have a better chance of sneaking in and becoming "the authority" soon after.
What about a "Marketplace" type of section, where people that sell to
contractors can post, become available for advice, etc.
Some criteria still should be met, for example you can only have 3 SEO, marketing consultants etc.
Or they have to prove their usefullness, be recommended by members etc.
That could be too much to manage, but I think the Marketplace idea can work.

[woodmagman]

When a person or business presenting themselves with all the papers and degrees and seals of approval to the members of the site, they do have the ability to become an authority to those that may not have the experience or knowledge to see a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
There is a nothing a lost, nothing gained attitude, if they wish to sell their wears, charge them for it and have them wear a wolf in sheep’s clothing avatar, someone once said “it is all about the avatar”….and it is….

[MALCO.New.York]

There should be one anonymously appointed Moderator who is in charge of making these decisions concerning validity of contribution versus the sales "factor" of a particular poster of question.

Anonymity makes it less likely of influences by Members who may just have a beef and are attempting to sway the "Eviction" of a particular poster.

There is a lot to be learned from the Trade Related Members who do not DIRECTLY solicit, recruit, or give away things with the future hope of collecting $ from support, updates and the like.

With out tools, this sight would have no purpose of function and some of these "Related" guys are just that. Another tool in our boxes. Some are not.

Just my 2 pennies.

[AtlanticWBConst]

What about having one forum (section)for that group/area?

That way, such market-oriented individuals can't roam the site, looking for posts to respond to and twist their reply into a sales speil.

One forum allows others to visit and participate with them, and takes away their ability of free roaming, and crossing the line.

[MALCO.New.York]

Originally Posted by AtlanticWBConst

What about having one forum (section)for that group/area?

That way, such market-oriented individuals can't roam the site, looking for posts to respond to and twist their reply into a sales speil.

Like one that we could visit but NOT vise-versa?

WE would lose, in my opinion, a bit of the "flavor" here if that were to become the case.

[AtlanticWBConst]

Originally Posted by MALCO.New.York

Like one that we could visit but NOT vise-versa?

yeah...

[threaderman]

Originally Posted by AtlanticWBConst

What about having one forum (section)for that group/area?

That way, such market-oriented individuals can't roam the site, looking for posts to respond to and twist their reply into a sales speil.

One forum allows others to visit and participate with them, and takes away their ability of free roaming, and crossing the line.

Nice!

[TimelessQuality]

It seems that a lot of these pitchmen search the archives and find an old thread that pertains to their product, then bring it back to life...

Maybe locking inactive (3 mos?) threads, or allowing them to be resurrected with an asterisk would stop some of it.

Flag it somehow as 'OLD THREAD'... just a thought.

BTW, Nathan, you and the 'boys' are doing a great job...very professional.

[neolitic]

Nobody would like my hard and fast rules.
Like the Justice said, " I know it when
I see it."
The only "consultants" I have any tolerance
for here are concretemasonry, Bob Kovacs,
and those cut from their cloth.
Salesmen?
MartyCD and Tscarborough are shining
and rare examples of guys that fit in
and are not only helpful, but really
should be part of the community.
I'm hard pressed to think of many more
who I don't consider purely snake oil salesmen.
The "business consultants" and life style
coaches look best on the ignore list to me.
The best business coaches here are the
guys doing the work IMO.

[Nathan]

Yea, having a certain area is hard because a lot of times it's them chiming in on certain topics with knowledge that helps.


Also, I'll just state again... we wont allow some people to do it and others not to. We need to be able to set up rules and be able to point everyone to them.

Great feedback though guys... thanks!

[SLSTech]

The problem with a separate forum is the way things are laid out. We have a Tech area, Marketing area, Decking area, etc... A relevant thread may be in another area that they could answer, but we might not catch it if it is in the "Buy Us" area. I don't mind hearing advice from a rental place about a tool purchase seeing that's all they deal with, or a lumber yard supplier forewarning us about a callback, or possible defective product.
I personally like the 2nd option, but as others have stated that is allot of work for the moderators to decipher what is, what isn't, their good, their bad. I would say go with the 2nd option for awhile & if it doesn't work out - lock it back down.
One item that might help is making the bulk of the Registration items mandatory (moderators can see all) - and allowing the users to choose what gets shown. If they post a bogus company or phone number, etc..., break the rules - ban em
Just my .02

[Tscarborough]

I think the current rule is perfect. If anyone wants to actively steer business to themselves or their website, then they should pay Nathan for the privilege, no matter what their trade or status.

A contractor or company having their contact info in their sig is NOT actively promoting themselves or their business UNLESS in the content or body of their post they are steering people to their own offsite pages.

One simple way to distinguish between self promoters and helpful industry participants is if they create new threads giving unsolicited advice or do they attempt to answer legitimately posted questions by contractors.

Personally, I am a supplier first, and a very small scale contractor second. I would never consider offering my services as either on this site without personal contract from a member to me, never vice versa.

[Mike Finley]

Charge those on the fringes of our industry - consultants, marketers, industry reps a membership fee $100,$250, $500? to belong here as a Industry Associate.

This gives them access to the membership here and they can post links in their signature lines and 'help' out and get what they want for being here anyways. Make some guidelines about blantant selling of their services and there you go. Anybody worth a crap and who is the real deal isn't going to have a problem paying for access to the gems that lurk here.

If they want to be here they pay Nathan some dough. Follow the rules and the good ones will benefit by taking and giving. Be a taker and there are plenty of not so shy members here who will pound them into quivering jello with witty verbal jabs.

[woodmagman]

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

plenty of not so shy members here who will pound them into quivering jello with witty verbal jabs.

charge a fee is ok by me....

[rbsremodeling]

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

Charge those on the fringes of our industry - consultants, marketers, industry reps a membership fee $100,$250, $500? to belong here as a Industry Associate.

This gives them access to the membership here and they can post links in their signature lines and 'help' out and get what they want for being here anyways. Make some guidelines about blantant selling of their services and there you go. Anybody worth a crap and who is the real deal isn't going to have a problem paying for access to the gems that lurk here.

If they want to be here they pay Nathan some dough. Follow the rules and the good ones will benefit by taking and giving. Be a taker and there are plenty of not so shy members here who will pound them into quivering jello with witty verbal jabs.

Problem I see with that is, if you charge a fee. they pay up then they turn out to be an a-hole then the real a-holes like me torment them for a few days they feel picked on and want a refund.