Big F Up

Grumpy

I'm so pissed right now! We did a job last year where we installed 5" copper gutter screens. This was a job one of my estimators sold. Anyways the customer called me to tell me that the gutters were clogged, which I don't care about to be honest because I don't warrant that no garbage will pass through, but he tells me that his gutters are 6", not 5!

WTF?! How did this happen? At some point someone should have caught this blunder and put on the brakes. If not my production manager who re-measures, the installers... This mistakes is going to cost me thousands.

Anyways The contract clearly states we will install 5" gutter guards. Also he approved the guards based on our sample before installing. My first inclination is to replace the guards with new 6" guards (that's going to be a big hit) however I do have grounds to fight since technically we did as we were hired to do, and installed the 5" guards as per contract.

More than likley I am going to take the hit and install 300' of new copper gutter guard for free, but what would you do in my situation?

ProWallGuy

Holy crap, sounds like a nightmare. I was wondering how 5" guards would fit on a 6" gutter?

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Mike Finley

Legally it sounds like on first glance that your contract would stand based on what it says, however in court a judge is already against you because you are a contractor, and we all know that contractors in court are there because they are the type that screws customers. How would you answer the question of why were 5" gutter gaurds sold to a customer with 6" gutters? The right answer of course is going to have to be - we screwed up somewhere along the way. So you aren't likely to win that one anyways.


No question it would be two things, number one is fixing it and making it right for the customer, not only is it the right thing to do, but your reputation is counting on it. Number two would be figuring out a fool proof method to avoid something like this every happening in the future.

Good luck with this one, it hurts, but karma may reward you with another job or referral from this happy customer you are going to create, who right now is probably thinking the worst.

Grumpy

What gets me is I thought I did have a fool proof method of catching crap like this, by sending out a person to remeasure everything before we cash the down payment check, order materials, and schedule the work.

Ok I acknowledge that the estimator is an idiot and now he's gone because of a drug problem. I acknolwedge the installer is/was a hack and he's gone as well. It doesn't suprise me at all that these guys both messed up; but what is shocking is that someone with years and years of expeirence, who is supposed to know what's going, would allow something like this to slip through.

Am I displacing blame in this situation? His sole job is to prevent problems from occuring. If I am going to just take the estimator's word for it and hope for the best I can save myself $40k a year and spend the same ammount of time fixing F ups. (That's unrealistic, I wouldn't let him go for one mistake, but I need to vent while he is inspecting the mistake so I don't beat his ass when he gets back.)

Mike, as I said my first inclination is to install the proper guards because I do acknowledge that we as a company did make a mistake. My only hope is that the entire 300 feet aren't 6" and only a few short sections, please oh please oh please.

slickshift

I think you should go with your gut Grumpy

But really that sucks, as you have systems in place to avoid this type of thing
I guess the system broke down on this one


I'd say the re-measurer screwed the pooch though
It's not like the contract said 6" but the product was 5" and some worker bees said aw wth we'll just put it up anyway

5" was clearly wrong

Keep an eye on him, maybe the original estimates have been good so he's been less than vigilant in his actual re-measuring

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Mike Finley

Yeah, it sounds like you have a system in place but it still broke down, so you still need to address it. If the guy had a drug problem, there is no telling if he ever showed up when he said he did, he might have been out buying crack instead of doing his job right? I'm kind of confused why you are so amazed that there could be such a problem existing with this customer if your pot head employee was in charge of this one?

I'm still of the mindset that the last duties you might ever want to give up in your company are selling. Selling goes hand in hand with customer relations and there is no position in your company that is going to have more of an effect on your entire companies well being. That position touches the customer from the start - through the process and right to the end, with plenty of opportunities to put out fires before they begin along the way and to keep an eye on every body else in the process from start to finish. If you have more leads than you can process personally then you need to be really, really, really hands on, out in the field with those sales people, all the time until you trust them with your life. Even at that point you still need to be looking over thier shoulders all the time.

asbestos

As the "comptent person" or the person asumed to be an expert. I can not see how it matters what the contract said. if it said 18" who cares the HO is not supposed to know what his gutters are, you are.
The best thing you can hope for is for fate to buy you dinner before it @&*%%s you.

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Romex-Racer

How likely is it that other jobs have been fouled up like this one?

From now on I'd make the estimators and installers carry digital cameras and photo-document these jobs. Review these photos and save them in the job file.

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Grumpy

You may have mis-read Mike. The druggie was the one who bid and sold the job, and the one who specified the 5" instead of 6". That does not amaze or suprise me at all. I am amazed that the 5" slipped through my filter. The "inspector" is not the one with the drug problem or he'd have been gone already as well.



Mike as I say EVERY time that you have said not to give up the selling... If I am to be the sole salesman for my company there is no reason for me to run a company PERIOD. I should just be an employee of someone elses company if that's the case. Having the balls to try to trust someone to specify and sell jobs is the ONLY way I can grow and reach my goals. There are only so many appointments I can make in one day, the only way I am going to make more money is to increase sales, and that means additional sales force. This is where you and I fundamentally disagree whole heartedly. I do intend one day to have 10 crews out and about each day. I do intend one day to have more than 10 salesmen out and about. I do intend one day to cover most of the Northern IL area. These are my goals.

Romex, I have the estimators already giving me dig images of every job they sell. When they turn in the contract I want a photo of the house and anything unusual. I saw a dig image but on a 3x5 curb shot, even I was unable to determine that it was a 6" gutter. 5 different sets of eyes on this gutter job and not one person stopped to say "Hey these are 6" gutters, why are we installing 5" screens?"

Grumpy

I agree.

copusbuilder

Watch out Grumpy you are beginning to sound like me

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Mike Finley

I see, I didn't get that, now it makes more sense.



Nope, you are misunderstanding me, I never said don't give it up, I said the last thing to give up would be sales. Eventually you have to and need to give those reins over, but it would be the last thing to give up.

Like I said that side of anybodies business is so important, it touches so many important facets - from controlling your income, growth and more importantly the quality of your product, the customer service side of your business and supervising side of your business when it comes to your crews as you follow through the jobs from start to finish. I will fill every other position in my company first before I finally give that up. It's way too important in my opinion. Then finally when the time is right it will be given up by a slow retreat, with a whole lot of hand holding and looking over the shoulder of first 1 sales person and only after he is absolutely perfect will #2 come on board and so on... and those sales people are going to have to be more than sales, they are going to be more of a sales person / account executive / project manager, with their pay plans not only attached to gross profits, but also attached to customer satisfaction with every project they have sold and supervised, plus employee satisfaction of the crew who completes the job they sold. Big time accountability with big time reward for those who can fill the shoes.

Tscarborough

Mr. Finley, I will respond to your sales preaching in this thread, since it seems more applicable than that other one. I was going to PM it, but this seems like a reasonable thread to reply. I respect your opinion, and have taken the classes and read the books upon which you base your philosophy, but we have a fundamental difference on how we view sales and persons who do sales.

A sales professional will demand to work on 100% commission, based on gross margin plus expenses. On that basis alone, the rest of your argument is moot.

I have 20 years of highly successful sales, including managing a couple of other sales professionals. We outsold production most years, and were throttled by delivery for all. I have, however, spent 1 year of that 20 in an environment like you describe, mid-career. Salesperson turnover at that company was more than 100% yearly, and I personally could not stand it. The other 19 years of my sales career were with only 2 companies, one of which evolved from the first (that one year was during the evolution).

What you described is babysitting, and I would never employ someone that required me to baby sit them. Sales management for professionals is purely a support function.

The other 10 years of my adult life were spent in the trades doing hard labor, skilled labor, and labor management, and I would not tolerate someone that required babysitting in that aspect of the business either.

Grumpy, if you want real sales people, expect them to be the highest paid employees in your company, and if they are really good, they will not (have to) work after 2:00PM on Fridays.

Mike Finley

aaaaaaaaaaaaa

Mike Finley

In what field? That's totally false. The truth is three things effect the commission/salary ratios. #1) The length of the sales cycle, #2) The dollar amount of the products/services being sold, #3) The industry.

If any of that is confusing I will be happy to explain deeper.

Case in point I know 2 sales people who made $1,700,000.00 and $2,000,000.00 respectively last year. Neither of them are on 100% commission and I'm pretty sure you would have an uphill battle convincing me that either of them wasn't a "sales professional" nor at the top of their game.

As far as all the stuff about babysitting and such...

... I've heard it all before and I always hear it from somebody who was on the baby end of the babysitting, but never from the other end.

Listen - it's really easy to understand: It's really convenient to think you treat everybody the exact same way, however, reality dictates that it is rarely the case. Case in point #2- would you give an 18 year old the same level of supervision as a 18 month infant? Of course you wouldn't.

There are low level salespeople such as those that work at sears selling appliances and their are high level salesman such as those that work for a major corporation, travel the globe and are closing multi-million dollar, and even billion dollar contracts.

If you think they are both managed the same way then the discussion is over because you aren't able to even understand the questions. However if you are now starting to see what I am getting at you can further understand that there is a big difference in the way you manage salespeople based upon the level and the background they are coming from.

Case in point #3 - A person with ZERO sales experience will not be considered for a job as a salesman for Ball Aerospace. However, he has a 50/50 shot at getting the job as a salesman for a roofing, siding or window company. You should be able to realize that the sales force working for Ball Aerospace is going to be managed dramatically different than the sales force working for sears in the appliance dept. Being upset and pissed because you are being "babysat" is just the first glimpse of self-realization of your lot in life based upon where you are in your career.

Reality is - low-level sales people which are the only ones available because of the income levels attainable in home-improvement sales will need to be baby sat. The sooner this realization is attained the faster your profits will increase.

Tscarborough

I realize that the specific item sold is one of the most important determinants. What gave you away to me was the use of the term, "sales floor". In that environment, what you advocate is, of course, an excellent choice.

I have been lucky enough to sell commodities, basically: Construction Materials. This means the customer WILL be buying the product, the question is will he buy it from ME. If you pay a salesman in this situation anything BUT by GPM, then you will face a falling profit, or you will have to baby sit.

I realize that you can't treat everyone the same way, of course, and that there has to be accountability and procedures. I also am, and know enough other successful sales professionals to tell you that it can be done and is done with no baby sitting what so ever.

Tell me what you require and what tools I have to do it with; let me figure out how to achieve it. That is the way you produce successful persons, no matter what the position or the industry. ]

Here are a few of the formal courses I have taken as well as 6 years of Business, Communication, and Psycology leading to a BS in General Studies with a double minor (They wouldn't let me take business courses in the Comp Sci Major, and were still only offering 10-key in Business Major).

Dale Carnage 6 month course graduate.
TQM 2 year course graduate, Team Leader and Process Writer.
Open Book Management, 6 month course graduate, Team Leader.

I don't give you that information to show you how smart I am (I am just a dumb ol' redneck), just to show you that I have been exposed to the theory and the practice.

Mike Finley

I went back and reread what you were responding to and it is very interesting to me that you would equate:

...with baby-sitting.

That really baffles me. However, I do believe you do need to "baby-sit" each and every employee of your organization so I responded in post #15 as I did. However, I am baffled how you equated "baby-sitting" with accountability and reward, but somehow you do. I firmly believe in setting people up for success not failure and part of that process is not letting them fu#k themselves which 99% of the population is liable to do given too much freedom and leeway. (just look around you for the proof of this trait of our population and you see the examples of it everywhere, from the over filled prisons to the historically highest credit card debt rates and historically lowest savings rates of American citizens ever.) What you have labelled "baby-sitting" is what I considered the tools that a salesperson of the calibers we should all be knowing we are going to be dealing with in the home improvement category, are going to need in order not to fu#k himself.

A salesman that says: is going to be a rare one in the home improvement industry. Especially the let me figure out how to achieve it. part. Would I like to hear that from a salesman I would employ. YES, in fact HELL YES. Would I actually take his word for it and let him go at it? HELL NO. At least not until he has proved himself with a clear track record of met quotas, has proved himself to me personally by being with him on sales call after sales call, has proved himself by showing me how he has dealt with nightmare customers and solved customer relation issues, has proved himself to be competent enough not just to make the sale, but make the right sale where the installers don't have to now deliver on his over-promises.... ect...

... Only after that would I stop listening to his taped and recorded incoming sales phone calls on a weekly basis and possibly only listen to them every 2 weeks!

Tscarborough

Pay him only on GPM of sales plus expenses. Simple as that.

Mike Finley

I'm sorry Tscarborough, but that doesn't even make any sense, to me at least.

Tscarborough

You have trust issues. At least with my method it doesn't cost you a dime.