Almost Got Stuck...

Endo · 11-30-2007, 01:03 AM

A friend of mine is a small time contractor and he's recently been getting these bank house jobs from a big bank. Basically they just want enough paint carpet and wood repairs to get it on the market.

I'd done some carpentry for him before working hourly on one of these houses and the whole situation seemed strange from the beginning. The lady who oversees the jobs is an agent and she's in a no-stress position. She takes the lowest bidder and it so happens that my friend likes to strive to be the lowest and just hire guys hourly to tinker on the houses.

He has a knack for selecting the worst help I've ever seen. For instance at the current house he had a two "carpenters" working there for $18/hr each and they were smokin' ice and drinking on the job when he was gone.

So the situation is that out of a $12,000 bid with 1/3 payment schedule for the draws and the final he's lost the first to these jacklegs. He asked me if I wanted to try and salvage the remaining 8800 left in the job by taking it over.

The house needs full paint inside and out. Tile a shower and other minor tile. Tons of sheetrock patches, trim, you know the deal. I told him I'd try and help him out and started crunching some numbers thinking I could handle all the paint prep myself and get some cheap painters in there and knock it out. Oh yes, I forgot to mention he's on a Dec. 15th deadline.

I've never done any jobs this large on my own so I was eager to see what I could do with it. He wanted to pay me whenever he gets paid his draws which were; 3700 in a couple of days, and the other 3700 after the bank approves (could be Feb. next year). He would take 15% of these draws. This would require me (the subcontractor) to front my money while he has a Merry Relaxing Christmas. I wrote up a contract and we sat down and signed it but there wasn't a copier there so I kept the signed copy. I spent a lot of time on the contract but it still felt like there were too many loose ends.

I had a bad feeling in my gut the whole time prior to this and when I got home I talked it over with some veterans in the business and my wife (personal accountant/agent) and realized I was about to get screwed.

I called him that night and told him it wasn't gonna work and apologized for my unprofessional conduct. Luckily he understood where I was coming from and that he was in agreement that the job is a mission impossible with the time and the money involved.

The next day I went out to the job to meet a painter (curiosity more than anything). He tells me that there's so much oil paint in the house that the entire thing has to be primed.

Half of me is jumping for joy that I didn't get locked in and the other half is feeling sorry for my friend. I'm extremely thankful to learn some important lessons without having to experience them the hard way.

The whole thing was a disaster when I look back on it but I'm eager to get my own jobs while work is slow. I've learned that patience and planning will be one of my best assets in the future.

My questions are as follows:
1) Could anyone recommend a good source/book for contract templates for small jobs such as minor carpentry work, etc.?
2)Is it common for someone in my position (the sub-subcontractor) to front money and then wait for payment to come down through 3 levels of people? Doesn't sit well with me.

Well, I know I'm gonna get flamed for this but it's a small price to pay for the lesson. I'm glad I went with my gut instead of the illusion of a profit.

Carpenter, Age 23
Atlanta, GA

reveivl · 11-30-2007, 02:43 AM

"I had a bad feeling in my gut"

...and you listened to it, well done, it takes some people (me) many years to get to that point. You aren't helping friends by personally bailing them out of sh!t they got into while they make 15% off the gross. What do they learn from this?: that there are people out there, (friends, perhaps) who will pick up after them while they make another mess.

L. B. Condulet · 11-30-2007, 08:41 AM

Endo,
This job is a perfect storm of stupidity. Your friend is an idiot, his workers are idiots, his customer is an idiot. The only 2 people who are not idiots (you and the painter you consulted with) are not associated with this job.

You did good buddy, backing out of this nightmare was the best way to go.

Bone Saw · 11-30-2007, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L. B. Condulet

You did good buddy, backing out of this nightmare was the best way to go.

ditto that
Additionally, to see this level of discipline and forsight at your age, and in the current market conditions, tells me you are poised for a promising contracting career. Keep honing your craft

thom · 11-30-2007, 11:11 AM

The biggest screw-up here is your buddy. He needs to get burned. As long as others pick-up the pieces, he's a winner an nothing will change.

As for the system, it sucks. I don't know if your buddy is licensed or not or if it's required there but, here realtors do that same thing. They have no care whether or not the contractor is properly licensed or insured. Seems to me the realtors have an ethics problem, but what do I know, I'm just a builder.

PARA1 · 11-30-2007, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endo

A friend of mine is a small time contractor and he's recently been getting these bank house jobs from a big bank. Basically they just want enough paint carpet and wood repairs to get it on the market.

I'd done some carpentry for him before working hourly on one of these houses and the whole situation seemed strange from the beginning. The lady who oversees the jobs is an agent and she's in a no-stress position. She takes the lowest bidder and it so happens that my friend likes to strive to be the lowest and just hire guys hourly to tinker on the houses.

He has a knack for selecting the worst help I've ever seen. For instance at the current house he had a two "carpenters" working there for $18/hr each and they were smokin' ice and drinking on the job when he was gone.

So the situation is that out of a $12,000 bid with 1/3 payment schedule for the draws and the final he's lost the first to these jacklegs. He asked me if I wanted to try and salvage the remaining 8800 left in the job by taking it over.

The house needs full paint inside and out. Tile a shower and other minor tile. Tons of sheetrock patches, trim, you know the deal. I told him I'd try and help him out and started crunching some numbers thinking I could handle all the paint prep myself and get some cheap painters in there and knock it out. Oh yes, I forgot to mention he's on a Dec. 15th deadline.

I've never done any jobs this large on my own so I was eager to see what I could do with it. He wanted to pay me whenever he gets paid his draws which were; 3700 in a couple of days, and the other 3700 after the bank approves (could be Feb. next year). He would take 15% of these draws. This would require me (the subcontractor) to front my money while he has a Merry Relaxing Christmas. I wrote up a contract and we sat down and signed it but there wasn't a copier there so I kept the signed copy. I spent a lot of time on the contract but it still felt like there were too many loose ends.

I had a bad feeling in my gut the whole time prior to this and when I got home I talked it over with some veterans in the business and my wife (personal accountant/agent) and realized I was about to get screwed.

I called him that night and told him it wasn't gonna work and apologized for my unprofessional conduct. Luckily he understood where I was coming from and that he was in agreement that the job is a mission impossible with the time and the money involved.

The next day I went out to the job to meet a painter (curiosity more than anything). He tells me that there's so much oil paint in the house that the entire thing has to be primed.

Half of me is jumping for joy that I didn't get locked in and the other half is feeling sorry for my friend. I'm extremely thankful to learn some important lessons without having to experience them the hard way.

The whole thing was a disaster when I look back on it but I'm eager to get

my own jobs while work is slow. I've learned that patience and planning will be one of my best assets in the future.

My questions are as follows:
1) Could anyone recommend a good source/book for contract templates for small jobs such as minor carpentry work, etc.?
2)Is it common for someone in my position (the sub-subcontractor) to front money and then wait for payment to come down through 3 levels of people? Doesn't sit well with me.

Well, I know I'm gonna get flamed for this but it's a small price to pay for the lesson. I'm glad I went with my gut instead of the illusion of a profit.

Carpenter, Age 23
Atlanta, GA

HOW DO YOU GET ICE TO BURN?

mahlere · 11-30-2007, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PARA1

HOW DO YOU GET ICE TO BURN?

ice=meth....unless you were making a funny...if that's the case, then "i don't know, how do you get ice to burn?"

Endo · 11-30-2007, 09:35 PM

Yea, the house is a mess. There's oil paint and Behr sandy faux finish everywhere.
He didn't even give me a number bid. It's like painting the whole house twice having to prime it.

Do they make a paint you can get to stick to oil until the bank approves it? =)

Celtic · 11-30-2007, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endo

I've learned that patience and planning will be one of my best assets in the future.

Well, I know I'm gonna get flamed for this but it's a small price to pay for the lesson.

You did the right thing....no flames from me.

**Ed the Roofer** · 11-30-2007, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PARA1

HOW DO YOU GET ICE TO BURN?

Burning Ice actually is an untapped and just recently discovered energy source, called "Methane Hydrates." They are hard, white crystals that form in sediments on the ocean floor.

It has potential to take the place of oil based energy supplies.

They contain water and concentrated methane. You can hold a flame to a piece of this methane hydrate and it will catch on fire.

The scientists call this "Burning Ice."

Ed

smellslike$tome · 11-30-2007, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer

Burning Ice actually is an untapped and just recently discovered energy source, called "Methane Hydrates." They are hard, white crystals that form in sediments on the ocean floor.

It has potential to take the place of oil based energy supplies.

They contain water and concentrated methane. You can hold a flame to a piece of this methane hydrate and it will catch on fire.

The scientists call this "Burning Ice."

Ed

How cool is that!

Hey didn't Styx have an album cover with burning ice on it? Yes I admit to having been a Styx fan. Pre Paradise Theatre that is.

KillerToiletSpider · 11-30-2007, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smellslike$tome

How cool is that!

Hey didn't Styx have an album cover with burning ice on it? Yes I admit to having been a Styx fan. Pre Paradise Theatre that is.

I have done work in Dennis Deyoung's house. He mows his own grass,

TimelessQuality · 11-30-2007, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smellslike$tome

How cool is that!

Hey didn't Styx have an album cover with burning ice on it? Yes I admit to having been a Styx fan. Pre Paradise Theatre that is.

Burning Ice...isn't that a Grand Illusion??

Metrojoebarbs · 11-30-2007, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer

Burning Ice actually is an untapped and just recently discovered energy source, called "Methane Hydrates." They are hard, white crystals that form in sediments on the ocean floor.

It has potential to take the place of oil based energy supplies.

They contain water and concentrated methane. You can hold a flame to a piece of this methane hydrate and it will catch on fire.

The scientists call this "Burning Ice."

Ed

Saw that on the Discovery last week. Located deep in the trenches and very hard to extract. The scientist actually lit it up in his hand.

**Ed the Roofer** · 11-30-2007, 11:07 PM

I never paid to see them. They were usually free at Xavier Callege when I was in High School.

Good band and harmony, now that you brought them up again, I miss them and some of those days.

Ed

11-30-2007, 01:03 AM	#1
Endo View Profile Endo Carpenter Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (8) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Carpenter Trade: Carpentry Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 8	Almost Got Stuck... A friend of mine is a small time contractor and he's recently been getting these bank house jobs from a big bank. Basically they just want enough paint carpet and wood repairs to get it on the market. I'd done some carpentry for him before working hourly on one of these houses and the whole situation seemed strange from the beginning. The lady who oversees the jobs is an agent and she's in a no-stress position. She takes the lowest bidder and it so happens that my friend likes to strive to be the lowest and just hire guys hourly to tinker on the houses. He has a knack for selecting the worst help I've ever seen. For instance at the current house he had a two "carpenters" working there for $18/hr each and they were smokin' ice and drinking on the job when he was gone. So the situation is that out of a $12,000 bid with 1/3 payment schedule for the draws and the final he's lost the first to these jacklegs. He asked me if I wanted to try and salvage the remaining 8800 left in the job by taking it over. The house needs full paint inside and out. Tile a shower and other minor tile. Tons of sheetrock patches, trim, you know the deal. I told him I'd try and help him out and started crunching some numbers thinking I could handle all the paint prep myself and get some cheap painters in there and knock it out. Oh yes, I forgot to mention he's on a Dec. 15th deadline. I've never done any jobs this large on my own so I was eager to see what I could do with it. He wanted to pay me whenever he gets paid his draws which were; 3700 in a couple of days, and the other 3700 after the bank approves (could be Feb. next year). He would take 15% of these draws. This would require me (the subcontractor) to front my money while he has a Merry Relaxing Christmas. I wrote up a contract and we sat down and signed it but there wasn't a copier there so I kept the signed copy. I spent a lot of time on the contract but it still felt like there were too many loose ends. I had a bad feeling in my gut the whole time prior to this and when I got home I talked it over with some veterans in the business and my wife (personal accountant/agent) and realized I was about to get screwed. I called him that night and told him it wasn't gonna work and apologized for my unprofessional conduct. Luckily he understood where I was coming from and that he was in agreement that the job is a mission impossible with the time and the money involved. The next day I went out to the job to meet a painter (curiosity more than anything). He tells me that there's so much oil paint in the house that the entire thing has to be primed. Half of me is jumping for joy that I didn't get locked in and the other half is feeling sorry for my friend. I'm extremely thankful to learn some important lessons without having to experience them the hard way. The whole thing was a disaster when I look back on it but I'm eager to get my own jobs while work is slow. I've learned that patience and planning will be one of my best assets in the future. My questions are as follows: 1) Could anyone recommend a good source/book for contract templates for small jobs such as minor carpentry work, etc.? 2)Is it common for someone in my position (the sub-subcontractor) to front money and then wait for payment to come down through 3 levels of people? Doesn't sit well with me. Well, I know I'm gonna get flamed for this but it's a small price to pay for the lesson. I'm glad I went with my gut instead of the illusion of a profit. Carpenter, Age 23 Atlanta, GA

11-30-2007, 02:43 AM	#2
reveivl View Profile reveivl Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,716) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Renovations Join Date: May 2005 Location: West Coast Canada Posts: 1,716	Re: Almost Got Stuck... "I had a bad feeling in my gut" ...and you listened to it, well done, it takes some people (me) many years to get to that point. You aren't helping friends by personally bailing them out of sh!t they got into while they make 15% off the gross. What do they learn from this?: that there are people out there, (friends, perhaps) who will pick up after them while they make another mess. __________________ From where does knowledge come? If you need to know what is in a box, you could ask someone (not reliable), you could pray, (not useful), you can consult with the scripture (not helpful) or you could open the box (science)

11-30-2007, 08:41 AM	#3
L. B. Condulet View Profile L. B. Condulet Registered Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (582) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Registered Trade: Super Electrician Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Southern California Posts: 582	Re: Almost Got Stuck... Endo, This job is a perfect storm of stupidity. Your friend is an idiot, his workers are idiots, his customer is an idiot. The only 2 people who are not idiots (you and the painter you consulted with) are not associated with this job. You did good buddy, backing out of this nightmare was the best way to go.

11-30-2007, 11:11 AM	#5
thom View Profile thom Thom Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (3,197) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Thom Trade: General Contractor/Homebuilder Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Albuquerque NM Posts: 3,197	Re: Almost Got Stuck... The biggest screw-up here is your buddy. He needs to get burned. As long as others pick-up the pieces, he's a winner an nothing will change. As for the system, it sucks. I don't know if your buddy is licensed or not or if it's required there but, here realtors do that same thing. They have no care whether or not the contractor is properly licensed or insured. Seems to me the realtors have an ethics problem, but what do I know, I'm just a builder.

11-30-2007, 09:35 PM	#8
Endo View Profile Endo Carpenter Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (8) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Carpenter Trade: Carpentry Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 8	Re: Almost Got Stuck... Yea, the house is a mess. There's oil paint and Behr sandy faux finish everywhere. He didn't even give me a number bid. It's like painting the whole house twice having to prime it. Do they make a paint you can get to stick to oil until the bank approves it? =)

Analysis of New Contractors Insurance Program in CA

Customer Testimonials ? I'll take them if you aren't using the...

Greenlee Glo-Stix...

DeWalt Self-Level...

Almost Got Stuck...

Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Re: Almost Got Stuck...

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

Already Have an Account?

11-30-2007, 11:07 PM	#15
Ed the Roofer View Profile Ed the Roofer Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (7,135) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Roofing Contractor Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NW Suburbs of Chicago Posts: 7,135	Re: Almost Got Stuck... I never paid to see them. They were usually free at Xavier Callege when I was in High School. Good band and harmony, now that you brought them up again, I miss them and some of those days. Ed

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
graco gun gets stuck in the triggered position	regal	Painting & Finish Work	3	04-28-2010 12:45 AM
Bobcat loader gets stuck in sugar sand	DRIFT-O-MATIC	General Discussion	4	10-26-2007 12:11 PM
Stuck s185	Cherryhill_cons	Excavation & Site Work Picture Post	5	07-05-2007 11:08 PM
Stuck in the middle	jmic	Excavation & Site Work	18	07-02-2007 08:24 PM
Stuck	denick	Excavation & Site Work	18	09-16-2006 10:28 AM