1st Solo Job, Overwhelmed, Unsure, And Breathing Deep.

UncarvedBlock

Hi all,
I found this sight cause I was looking for some advice, ideas, etc, etc about the general ethics of admitting that one is in over their head.
Situation at hand:
I took on a porch remodel job. My first solo job where I set the price, devised a game plan and went to work. Anyways, the porch is about 300sq feet. The owner wants a new roof, new ceiling, reinforced rafters, possible jacking of one corner, and some new facia trim.
My first thought after tearing off a small portion of the ceiling was the whole damn porch needs to be replaced, at least the roof and rafters. Owners original budget was in the 1,000 range. I told him it was going to be a bit more, we'll go t&m.
Day three, I've torn off a good chunk of the ceiling, torn off all the old metal roof, put new sheathing over the nasty old planks that were there, and put a layer of tri-flex over the sheathing.
Here is my predicament, I'm not a roofer and don't feel comfortable roofing the whole thing. Secondly, the reinforcing of the rafters is a bit over my head (hips and strapping, etc, etc).
As I said before, the whole thing should of just been torn down and rebuilt, its probably at least 80 years old.
An now finally, ,my concluding statement/question:

Do I toss the band-aid on and get out, having learned a serious lesson about knowing the depth before diving or should I bow my head in shame, tell the owner I'm underqualified and that he should find someone else?

I'm sort of inclined for number 2.

Thanks

tinner666

#2. Bummer of a post.

How much have you collected?
What are you trained for? Any knowledge of carpentry? Background?

Do you 'know' part of what's involved (on this job), and need a 'partner' to help do right by the customer?


Just curious and trying to be helpful, but polite. Some here won't.

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Frank Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.

firemike

Either what tinner said, or find a friend that knows what to do, and get some help/advice from him. If they can get you started and show you the right way to do it, you might be able to finish it up yourself. Or else pay your friend to do the job with you. You might lose out on a lot of the profit, but you will have learned a lesson, and some building techniques too.

Don't try to cobble it, that's what hacks do. You sound like you're trying to be professional about it anyway, why not take the time to do it right even if you lose on the profit. Gaining credibility is more important right now especially if you are trying to start a business of your own.

Have you shown the owner the extent of the damage yet? If not, maybe you should take some time to show him exactly what's involved so that you both are on the same page. If you talk it over with the owner, this may give you the answer you need.

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-Mike-

Ed the Roofer

Firstly, since there are cost over runs above the initial "Budget" amount from the home owner, have you invoiced him immmediately......WAIT!!!

First, have you presented him with a written change order and received his signature authorizing the additional costs to be incurred and did this change order indicate "Payment Upon Completion" or did you write in for scheduled "Progress Payments"?

Now we can get back to the question if you have invoiced him and if he has paid up to date per the contractual agreement?

If you did not think of putting in those points for clarification, you should consider writing up a new "Update To Specification Change Order" form and make sure to add in these very key and critical points.

Do you know of a qualified carpenter who can assist you as a temporary hire? Even a small carpentry company that would sub out one employee to you, even if it costs higher than you expected?

If you can not acquire the talent required to provide the minimum industry standards expected and desired finished result for your client, it would be better to inform him of that, but the job still can be salvaged if you get some qualified help and if the home owner is willing to sign for and pay for the extra work necessary.

It takes a big man to admit when he is over his head, but it takes a wiser man to know when to give it up or persevere onward to a successful completion.

Good Luck,

Ed

silvertree

Credit to you to admit your in over your head. Find a local pro to help you and if you can work with the other guy, watch and learn. Good luck.

dkillianjr

Yup exactly what they said. I really does take a big guy to admit your over your head! Where are you located?


Dave

thom

It seems to me you led him on with a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to low price. A bit more than a grand? The real issue is $, it generally is. The owner now is in the middle of a mess because you led him to believe it could be done for a little over a grand.

You don't tell us what's in writing. You do tell us it's t&m and that your estimate is to low. Now you want out and want someone to support you in your decision to walk.

So where does the owner sit if you walk? Say he's paid you nothing at all. Is he better off than before you started? Did you provide him with a valuable service? He relied on your expertise, did you lead him on/lie to him? Part of a pro's responsibility is to level with people. Let them know where they stand and what it should cost to do what is required. It seems to me you failed. You told the owner what he wanted to hear so you would get the job. You didn't tell him the truth. You probably didn't know the truth and probably didn't properly investigate.

So you're screwed, so is your customer.

UncarvedBlock

thanks so far for the advice.

i've got a few years experience under my belt doing carpentry (mostly new builds with small crew under direct supervision) and a few years of historical restoration experience(mostly masonry but a bit of carpentry and roofing).

Right now, the owner gave a deposit of 500 which basically covered materials and my seriously depreciated hourly rate. i'm willing to bite it on the profit knowing that i've been payed in experience and knowledge (don't bit off more than you can chew) and either find some help or hand it off to someone who could polish it off with one hand behind the back.

i'll probably tell the owner to get a roofer and finish that and then i with some other help will most likely finish up the rafters and ceiling.

thanks again for all the advice

nywoodwizard

If you honestly feel you do not have the qualifications to expedite this project in a proper and safe manner ,then #2 should be your option.There is nothing shameful about doing the right thing. You said you already put sheathing on but didn't fix the roof rafters yet ? I would think the roof rafters would have to be repaired first or did you mean ceiling rafters? Either way first and foremost be honest with yourself and second be honest with the customer. Chalk it up as a lesson learned and go gain some more experience before your next attempt . I'm sure i can speak for most guys here in telling you we have all learned some valuable lessons along the way, some good and some bad, life goes on.

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Learning without thought is labor lost; thought without learning is perilous.

UncarvedBlock

roof rafters are ok, some of the planking was a bit punky but not an issue since i resheathed over them. celing rafters on the other hand are bowing down a bit and need some work.

i think i'm going to get a nights sleep on it and try to remind myself that honesty is best.

dirt diggler

man, just wait till Dirt reads this ...

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Thanks in advance!!!

JamesNLA

learn about strong backs. Getting in over your head can be a good thing. It challenges you and makes you go outside your box. Get a framer to walk you through exactly what needs to be done to do the job correctly. Let client know this IS NOT going to cost...whatever you already told him. Figure out how many full days of work it is going to take to finish everything you intended on doing. Hitting a client with a TnM invoice for thousands more than he was expecting will lead to a bad ending...no matter how good of job you did. You DO NOT need to tell him you are in over your head. You need to get a little creative on how you are going to salvage this situation. Throwing in the towel may be the right thing to do in certain situations, but of you have experience and half a brain to go with it, there are a few ways you can pull this off to where everyone is happy. A decent framer can work wonders. And remember this, it's not your fault the building is the way it is. Use your brain and get it done. Just let your client know within 10 - 20% of what he will be paying. Tell him, your only interested in doing this repair correctly and it may take a little longer that originally thought. Mention you WANT to do this correctly and AT LEAST to local code, hopefully he will appreciate that and tell you to get started. If he throws a fit about the additional expence, run. Grab your tools - piss in his bushes and run. That's the kind of guy that will decide not to pay you later

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"....And then we all switch places when I ring the bell"
-Adrock

ruskent

Welcome to being your own boss! I'd tried to find someone who knows what they are doing to help you with the project. I'd go thid route even if it cost you 2k to complete the job.

Forry

Damn, wish I'd found this sight/thread back in the day... I know how you feel. It's worth the time and lost $ to learn everything you can now. It pays off down the road. Try and stick with this and get it right. Do what the others said, and find someone local who's qualified to help or talk you through it. Be honest with the client, but with confidence. It's ok to be wrong once or twice with a client, but after 3 or 4 sorry's, it don't work no more.

ponch37300

You said you have experience with new framing and historical renovatio, would any of the guys you worked with be willing to come help you out for some cash. If i were you(and i was in this very situation before) i would find someone with some framing and roofing experience to help you out and pay them what you were going to make. You profit on this job will be the experience you learn from who ever helps you so next time you can do it yourself. figure out what materials are going to cost and how much help is going to cost(hopefully you know someone that will help for a decent wage), and tell the homeowner what the new bill is going to be and WHY it is like this and explain that things will be done right and the new porch will outlast the old one. If you now the homeowner maybe you could work something out where he will pay you the extra charges next month if money is an issue. goodluck whatever you decide.

nywoodwizard

Don't let anyone here talk you into getting in over your head. After you think about and decide that "you" feel comfortable doing it ,then go ahead. We can only make assumptions on your experience based on what you revealed, But just by being on contractortalk.com should not lead everyone to assume you actually know or are even qualified to attempt certain projects. No disrespect intended. Do you actually own a company yet? Insurance? License?

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Learning without thought is labor lost; thought without learning is perilous.

WNYcarpenter

Don't beat yourself up too much...This happens everyday. Remodelers find problems all the time...often enough it's a problem they feel they need to bring some else to fix. The worst thing you can do is walk away from the customer or scab it back together.

IMO, don't give up yet. It sounds like you have a plan on dealing with the homeowner, but don't leave the ball in their court. Present the problem with a solution and stay in control.

"Mr. Mrs. Smith, I found such and such a problem, I don't have enough experience with such and such, but I have someone coming tommorrow to look at it. I can give you a better idea what the cost will be then. Sorry for the inconvenience, please be patient, I promise this project will be done correctly and in a timely fashion."

Even with limited experience you have more knowledge than the HO and so far they trust you. This could work in your favor if you admit your lack of knowledge, show your determination to follow through, and keep in communication so they know that everything is under control.


Being resourceful, honest, and following through is what most (not all) want.

woodmagman

You should live up to your agreement with the customer or pay for your mis-guided sense of ability.

A W Smith

This is an opportunity to learn some important lessons. If there is additional work beyond the scope of your original agreement then don't be shy negotiating for extra money. The owner will have to sacrifice another portion of the work like the roof or other items if he cant afford it. Write down what each portion of the job costs you in time and labor, including what that roofer is going to charge the owner. Then you will know what you Should have charged. If you bite the bullet and do the best job you can. You may land addrional work in the neighborhood that you can make money on.

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Al Smith
http://www.awsmith.com

wackman

Ya know how kids go to basic training and discover that they can do things they didn't know they had in them? This is kinda like that.