Estimating Programs......

rbsremodeling

The one I use is similar to golden seal.

I did the same thing adjust my labor and material rates.

It also has estimated hours per item. So if I assign a sub or employee to a task It will reflect his rate for the work he is to perform.

I update material pricing every 30 days. I think our assemblies are built the same as yours. Once they are setup makes the estimating process a whole lot easier to accomplish.

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woodmagman

Estimating is a system as you said, it can be calculated by the square foot, by the lineal foot or by the cubic foot....but....within those calculations is the system. How many studs are used in a 10 foot wall, are they placed on 16 or 24 inches o.c. are the stud utility, construction or better? Are you using 2 nails or 3, the list goes on. That is why a program like excel and others can be so good. You can build the program the way you build the project. Using relevant materials, costs and procedures to develop a accurate cost.

RBS I looked at the program you use and it is an excel based program.

Does it do critical path or is that a add on.

Max Nomad

Greetings, gents,

Attached to this post is a copy of a Generic Cost Estimate Spreadsheet that I have and use on occasion (17k zipped, 240k unzipped). It's broken up into a summary sheet along with sheets for all of the Divisions. Although you can change the name/location/project on the Summary sheet and it will update all the other sheets, admittedly I didn't check to see whether or not this was my version that has all the formulas working properly in all the sheets. I thought I'd share it since we were talking about templates and such to work with.

Of course, all thoughts and recommendations on it are always welcomed.

Attached Files

Generic-Cost-Estimate-Form.zip (16.9 KB, 123 views)

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True North

It's a fine, well organized spreadsheet, but it's also a fine example of what is frustrating to me about Excel estimating sheets.

Where do you get your costs from? Do you pull them out of previous experience, or do you just know how much each item costs? Perhaps you draw your production rates from a cost book? That's what I do, if I haven't done a particular project before.

Please don't think that I'm criticizing your sheet, because I am not! I am just so interested in estimating, and how others estimate. Once you work for a month at $3 an hour because you did something stupid, like doubled the material cost, you gain a real interest in this stuff!

Thanks for sharing.

True North

You just nailed a problem that I've been thinking about: It obviously does not take as long per foot to frame a 100' wall as it does to frame a 10' wall. It doesn't apply to only walls, but to almost every aspect of construction: Big jobs cost less per unit than little jobs. How do you account for that in your assemblies?

I would probably just knock a percentage off for the longer wall, but the imprecision bothers me.

Of course, maybe it's a touch of the obsessive compulsive in me. My tagline does apply to me!

Max Nomad

I'm in the same boat you are, constantly seeking to make sure our estimate processes are as fair and accurate as possible. At times it almost feels like it'll become an obsession.

Anyway, to answer your question I get the costs from sources like RS Means or the [2008] National Repair & Remodeling Estimator book (which also comes with it's own estimate software that pulls from it's data). Even then, this sheet is only for larger projects where there's new construction [commercial or residential]. For most residential kitchen and bathroom renovation projects the form I posted actually borders on overkill, mostly since my business partner does those on-site estimates and everything needed for the job can easily fit on one sheet.

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rbsremodeling

My assemblies account for small jobs with min charges, variations on height and length of walls, drywall, 2 or more level houses, roof pitch, need scaffolding and just about any variable you can think of.

Is it exacting? no but it is damn close for my needs and of course it get updated or amended as needed.

Most of the numbers are historical the rest come from hometech's database

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silvertree

I'm probably older than most you guys. I use to use unit pricing.
Lets say framing and finishing a wall.
Frame $20 LF
Siding $40 lf
Insulate $20 LF
Rock $15 lf all for 8' high wall and so on.

10 x 10 addition is 40 LF x $95 LF= cost x 1.60
Plus roof assembly
Floor assembly
Windows, electric ect.
My point is many ways to skin a cat.
A guy with assemblies can estimate as fast as a person with a computer.
Provided you have your subcontractor bids.
I haven't used assemblies for a while, but they worked very well, and you could send a salesman out to bid (provided you checked his numbers).
What I like about estimatinjg software is, you change something and its all done for you.
But still, remember "Garbage in= Garbage out.

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Vote for Pedro
Kitchen, bath, St Paul remodeling
Minneapolis Remodel Blog
203K Loan Consultant Minnesota

woodmagman

It takes 10 times longer to build a 100 foot wall as it does a 10 foot. How do I know this, (I build walls) The time moving and setting the wall are different so you need to take this into account when doing your calculation. I can calculate my costs to insulate a wall per stud cavity, per lineal foot or per cubic foot, providing I have a base for the calculation. You take all this information and create a base for estimating and it will work for you based on your specifics, this does not mean it will work for someone else because their input information is different, insulation may cost more, the work force may all be one armed vertically challenged hobbits. The process can be followed and adjusted to the individual requirements. Make it more complicated than that and the hobbits will revolt.

woodmagman

This is the very reason why asking the cost of something per square foot does not work, what I charge likely will not be what you need to charge. Do the calculations yourself. Even with the software, you still need to input the data based on your company and group of tradesman.

rbsremodeling

I disagree with most here and think you can give a sqft cost for almost any job. I know I am in the minority on this.

But I shoot a sqft cost before I leave an estimate every time I go to an appointment. Normally abut 95% of the time when I work up the detail quote the sqft cost I gave is on the money.

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silvertree

Rory, SF costing works for you because you got lots of numbers in your head.
If you were 15 years younger and did this you'd be screwed. I can walk through a job like an addition and be real close in ten minutes. I have done this over and over. But the 5% or 10% your low, if you are low is net profit your not getting. 5% or 10% high and another guy gets the job. And thats why we write scopes and estimates. When I did fire restoration we counted food items, laundry cleaning bills, ect and had 20 or more pages of line items. I got a percentage of the insurance payout so anything I missed the homeowner got less and so did I. That insurance estimating job set my methods for life.
Estimating is paint by numbers.
But for the argument, what works for you might not work for me, so whats a good estimating system? Anything that accurately reflects your costs of producing the job. 10 ft of wall is $10, then 100 ft of wall is $100. If your a slow wall guy you have to charge more to make money. My point is, and you and the Woodman have said, you pick your system and install the numbers that work for you.
We have 100 estimating systems to choose from and the reason people keep changing is they think the new system will make them money. s*it, a pencil and notebook works great if you know what you need to sell the job for to make a profit. The system is way less important than using any system to price your jobs right.

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Kitchen, bath, St Paul remodeling
Minneapolis Remodel Blog
203K Loan Consultant Minnesota

rbsremodeling

I agreed Paul. I sometimes forget the experience factor. That is a huge factor.

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buildpinnacle

My two cents...I have been an avid Xactware user for several years as we did primarily ins work. I have migrated out to more bid work (additions, whole-house, etc) in the past couple years, but have made a 360 degree turn back to mostly insurance fire/water/wind/hail work. I use Xactremodel now and like the zip code based pricing structure, the large database, ease of use, floor plan variables memory when I am ready to line item, etc. I am about to take the advanced class that will concentrate on the sketch program wizards that will allow me to fully blueprint losses with more detail, elevations, etc. Major trade work is placed per code with the click of a button. (so they say) The program had the ability to make your own macros or you can buy like 200 of them for $99 off of the internet and adjust them as needed.

The price is very reasonable at $599.00 per year ($95.00 per month if you go that route) for a very well designed program. It has become a necessary evil for us due to the amount of ins work we do, but I have used other contractor driven estimating software programs and they don't impress me that much more. The database is easily changed when need be and everything can be adjusted.

I have used UDA Technologies Cons Suite since 2006. I just upgraded last week to the 09 version b/c I switched to Vista and my old copy wouldn't work. The contracts and specifications are second to none, but I really don't like the est portion. I have not really started digging into the new dashboard, lead management, sub management, etc. but have the totalcare package and plan to get well trained. Will update after I learn more about that portion.

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Max Nomad

Quick question -- with your ability to come up with a sqft price, does this happen after you've done a walk-thru visit of the location or can you give these quotes over the phone?

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rbsremodeling

Both. If they describe their home to me. Give me the layout of what needs to be done. I will give a price over the phone. If the price is within their ball park I will set an appoint to look at the property and confirm the specs and add the items that I missed or could not see over the phone.

When I give a sqft estimate Ill say 30-35k for the kitchen ex. Then go out take measurements and verify the field conditions for the actual proposal.

I think Paul maybe right that the ability to do that has come with experience. I also know the layout of most of the Houses in this area from memory.

I would not have done the sqft quotes years ago.

If the customer tells me where they live and the type of house. I usually have an estimate similar to the work they want done in my database.

I think giving a ball park estimate works for me. But like I said before a lot of guys shy away from doing that. They need to work up all the parts and labor to give a quote.

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Max Nomad

I have to admit, at first I was a bit skeptical (mostly because our team is still at that early stage) but now that you've explained a little about what's behind your method it makes perfect sense. It'll be nice to get to that point where we can even begin to see our market in those terms. For now it's all still a big proving ground we're still learning.

Virginia Beach by itself is basically a huge suburban sprawl, patched together with neighborhoods that were built in any given decade since the 1950s. Add the surrounding six cities and that range includes some neighborhoods with homes that are over 100 years old. Because of those factors and serving customers across the Seven Cities we can't even begin to think in terms of quoting a sqft price over the phone... at least not in the foreseeable future.

Your post has my wheels turning a bit though. I'm actually wondering if there's a way to come up with price brackets based on some factors that can be pre-screened over the phone. Thanks for the inspiration.

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silvertree

Just to be clear, I am all for ballparks. Time is money and you have to qualify.
Another point is, if you are a good shoot from the hip estimator, an estimating program just makes good on what you already know.

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Vote for Pedro
Kitchen, bath, St Paul remodeling
Minneapolis Remodel Blog
203K Loan Consultant Minnesota

rbsremodeling

Here is the rub, not everyone can do it. It is not an easy task. I also don't recommend it. One of the things I am good at is estimating. But I lack in many other areas.

I did estimating for years for my first company so there are a lot of numbers up in my head.

I started estimating full time at the age of 21 so that's 17 years of crap in my head to toss around. Also lots and lots of projects. Projects that cover just about any imaginable scope of work you can think of.

People call me all the time with stuff like my roof is sinking, the garage floated away and the bathroom fell out the window can you help.

Yep that gonna be 280K did a job like that last year.

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True North

I respectfully disagree with you about this.

All things being equal to start with, i.e., a floor and a pile of studs.

Do you break out the compressor and guns to build 10' of wall? If you do, that 5 or 10 minutes of cord and hose unrolling needs to be absorbed by the wall. Let's go with 5 minutes: Thirty seconds a foot for the 10' wall, and three seconds a foot for the 100' wall.

Let's say you use a hammer for the 10' wall, because it's not worth using the guns: Still more time per foot.

What if every stud needs to be cut? We can set up a chop saw with a stop for the 100' wall and blast through the 76 studs in short order. We're unlikely to do that for 10', so we break out the tape and skillsaw. Guess what? More time per foot.

Let's move to marking the line on the subfloor: It only takes a little longer to snap 100' of line vs. 10'. You still have two measurements to make. Basically you just walk 90 more feet for the longer wall.

The list can go on. I'm actually astonished that you would say something like 100' of wall take 10 times as long. It is one of the basic principles of construction and manufacturing that smaller quantities of the same type of work cost more per unit. That's why 500 business cards cost $25 and 1000 cards cost $30.

I mean no offense by this post. I'm really enjoying the dialogue in this thread. Like Max Nomad said, estimating could almost become an obsession.