SEOs........the TRUTH, please! - Page 5 - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Pro Builder · 10-27-2009, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karunnt

Sure they can.

http://www.seomoz.org/blog/how-to-price-an-seo-campaign

Some companies put down 100k/month on Adwords alone. This is how Google makes it's money? It's a matter of ROI not advertising cost. If you are getting a return you will spend. It's as simple as that.

Exactly. Insert a business name in the phrase "no one should spend $20k on seo"

examples: ebay should never spend $20k
McDonald's........................
Amazon..........................
home depot.......................

It gets to be sort of silly, really. Maby we could lower the bar a bit. If nobody should spend $20k, what SHOULD people pay? Is there a magic number? I suppose that number is whatever the poster puts his/her price at.

J. Sullivan · 10-27-2009, 09:31 AM

I don't think the feller who posted the $20k price tag was really thinking along the lines of major corporations. I'm almost certain that since this is a contractor forum, he was talking about contractors.

I have found that there is no "set price" for SEO work. I have never been able to give a client a hard and fast answer without getting at LEAST the following information:

What keywords do they want to rank for?

If a client wants to rank for "bath tubs", you're going to have a bitch of a time. I would generally steer them clear of such a broad head keyword, but if they really want it, then it's obviously going to take more time and work to rank, so naturally the price goes up.

How is the competition placed for those keywords?

Again, it's all about research. Even if you want a long tail keyword ranked, how is the competition placed? If they are ringing the bell and killing it on that keyword, I'd either suggest an alternative or again explain it's going to take more time and work. If it's a shoe in, then obviously you tell them it'll be pretty advantageous to get in on it.

What type of SEO is going to be most effective to get those results?

Contrary to popular belief, there are about a million different tools and techniques to get better search results. Some are incredibly time consuming, some not so much. Again, you need to use your research to know what you're game plan is going to be. Not every method is created equal, so prices vary as well.

How long is it going to realistically take to see hard results?

8 Days ago I did an experiment to see how long it would take me to bring two keywords from the abyss of Google to Page 1. In 7 days, I brought one from spot 39 to spot 4. My other keyword started at spot 109 and is now sitting pretty at......spot 54. Two giant jumps for sure, but obviously I'm more happy with the first keyword.

I did the exact same amount of work for both, the exact same techniques. My research had already told me that it was going to take longer and be a battle for the top spot with the second keyword, but I wanted to test it out.

If I was paying to have the second keyword ranked, I obviously would be paying more. All keywords are not created equal.

What does this mean for you guys?

Basically, SEO is a huge PITA. I enjoy it because of the competitive nature, and I like to "win" and beat other companies at their game. But it's repetitive, usually quite slow, and requires hard research and constant monitoring and adapting so you don't waste money.

Also, be advised that it's not going to happen over night, and you need to continue working on it to maintain your rankings. I used the gym analogy before, where if you build the muscle and stop working out, you're going to end up smaller than the gym partner that continues to workout. Same holds true for rankings.

There is no magic to SEO

Everyone has the ability to learn how to create effective SEO. There is no magic password, no quick and easy way, no fast pass lane.

The reason I advocate getting it done professionally, besides getting those fat checks from all you fellars

, is that you are going to spend more money trying to learn and implement it.

You'll have to learn what to do, how to do it, where to do it. Then you need to perform your keyword research. Then you need to implement your research. Then you have to monitor the results so you can adapt your strategies. Then you have to constantly maintain your rankings.

How much is your time worth? I'm sure all of that time can be better spent working on ways to make more money, rather than learning how to do SEO.

In summation, be wary of cheapo SEO dudes. They are rarely worth the cost, and the extra money you'd invest with a real fella will be well worth it.

But you probably don't need to be spending thousands. Most small business owners aren't trying to rank for those super competitive keywords. Ask for a report on how difficult your competition will be and an explanation on why it's going to cost what it is. Should be a good barometer for SEO worthiness.

Off for some D&D coffee, pumped for Celts tonight. Who else is watching some NBA this evening?

bob-contractor · 10-27-2009, 11:09 AM

Agreed. 20k is definitely too much spend at McDonald's

bob-contractor · 10-27-2009, 11:11 AM

@cbscreative I guess it's not "hard economic times," but there are salary freezes in the city I work in. No exceptions. No matter how well you rank in SERPS.

"or are they just ungrateful hogs and you're trying to get the noose off your neck"
This has something to do with it as well.

who I am

cbscreative · 10-27-2009, 12:38 PM

Best wishes with the freelancing, Alex. I think you've been bitten by the entrepreneurial bug, and once infected, you'll never want to "work for the man" again. Corporate America has no loyalty for the most part. They'll use you then throw you away. That's not to be cynical, I'm just stating the reason so many people have left the rat race and found greener pasture. It's liberating not having some schmuck (or tyrant) pulling your strings.

DeckMan77 · 10-27-2009, 02:14 PM

When I think about the value of SEO I think about what type of return you could get on the investment. If you lived in Orlando, FL and wanted to tank in the Google local business results for the word "custom homes" I think you would be willing to spend $20K a year, or $1750 a month no problem. Especially if that got you an extra 3 custom homes a year.

Heck i've had good friends get 1st place rankings for "daycare" in their large metro area BUT their prices were not reasonable for their services. Guess what happened, lots of people came to their website and looked around but NOBODY used their daycare services. Was that the SEO companies fault or the business owner?

I think it's the business owners fault in this case.

J. Sullivan · 10-27-2009, 02:54 PM

Excellent points Deckman. I think a lot of people forget that SEO only does 1 thing, position you on a page of options for the visitor to select from. Traffic doesn't equal conversions, you've got to have a website to back it up.

bob-contractor · 10-28-2009, 11:03 AM

most "SEO's" cant do 20k worth of work for one client without ripping them off. at least in a couple of months. maybe over a year or two. i work for the biggest companies in the manufacturing area. i see what goes on.

bob-contractor · 10-28-2009, 11:04 AM

thanks cbscreative its slowly happening!

Pro Builder · 10-29-2009, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob-contractor

most "SEO's" cant do 20k worth of work for one client without ripping them off. at least in a couple of months. maybe over a year or two. i work for the biggest companies in the manufacturing area. i see what goes on.

I just talked to a guy that made $65k with a phone call to a company that was running hundreds of thousands in tv commercials.

JoeS · 10-29-2009, 08:03 AM

$20K freaking grand a month! Well maybe the big Fortune 500 companies do. Especially the banks with their bail out money!
My budget is uh.... $0. I along with my tech savvy brother work on moving up the natural side of google. I can check the hits to my site thanks to him. Pretty much everyone that I have talked to has said it is a "process" moving up, and not something that will happen overnight. So, I just carve out time each day to work the site. I go to random blogs relating to my industry (property preservation), and add to the conversation. I send out large quantities of email, go to networking meetings locally and cold call banks. I tweek the site on the weekend. I cannot afford a pay per click, so this is it. I have looked at some of the sites that come up when I google property preservation, and some of them look like crap. Mine is not good, but better than a lot of them.
So that is my two cents worth today. Hope everyone has a profitable day. Sure hope that I do!
Joe
joe@foreverfloridaone.com
I cannot put my site address here as I am a newbie but we are all smart people here and figure it out. So, please go to my site and help me move up! Thanks!!!

J. Sullivan · 10-29-2009, 09:55 AM

Again, 20k for SEO is so rare for someone running a small business I'm not even going to go there. Some people pay $400 bucks a plate for Chinese.

Get what I mean?

There is no average cost for SEO (all keywords are not created equal) but if you do your research and go after the ones that are going to convert well for you in the first place you'll know your money is going to be well spent. Then there is about a million different techniques to get you to rank, and all of those take different amounts of time. Ya dig?

I'd love to ballpark it for you, but unfortunately its a wicked tough thing do.

Local GEOtargeted SEO should usually cost less than competitive long tail keywords. And long tail keywords should usually cost less than broad head keywords.

And now that I've just puked up my Geek Speak of the day, I'm going to rinse my mouth out with gasoline.

I've said it a million times before, but there is so so so much more to building a website than picking out a design and throwing up words and pictures.

Just like everything else, if you want it to actually become an "employee" of yours rather than a business card, you have to max its potential.

cbscreative · 10-29-2009, 10:36 AM

I love the employee analogy, I just haven't used it in a while. Imagine trying to get an employee to work for you without being willing to pay them. If a business owner does not treat their web site like their most valued employee, it will not perform well.

Although a small contractor business would not need to spend $20k, the idea that only Fortune 500 companies would is just not true. A small biz with even 3-4 employees needs to generate hundreds of thousands per year to stay in business. Not being willing to invest $20k (whether SEO or some other area of marketing) is suicide. I don't have to tell the owner of a company with a few employees this, he or she already knows that. And I'm not saying SEO will cost $20k either, I'm simply making the point that it's not just for "big" companies. Anyone who thinks it is will always struggle in their business, and probably go under unless they change their thinking.

Hammer_Nail · 10-29-2009, 11:46 AM

The truth is that you are at the mercy of the SE's. But, you can get there, or get close.

1) Be realistic, if your Search Phrase Results is over 1,000,000 results, it will be difficult.

2)Analyze the Competition in regards to Content, Backlinks, and age.

3)If you don't know SEO, try to learn, join a Forum, ask questions.

Lastly, most websites that are #1 are just that for a reason, and that is they work at it everyday in various simple ways to promote the site. Good Luck.

Pro Builder · 10-30-2009, 01:57 AM

All great information from posters above.

I would add that do-it-yourself is a bit counter-intuitive for seo for most contractors. I mean, just the irony alone is kind of humorous. You build and repair things that people could "easily" do themselves, but choose to use a professional.

Giftcard · 10-30-2009, 10:00 AM

http://www.webconfs.com/15-minute-seo.php I like this site.

carlsore · 10-31-2009, 11:02 AM

This thread has sure taken off...! Lots of good advice given.

Keeping it simple again.

1. Proper Title Tags
2. Content To Match
3. Relevant Backlinks

That's SEO in a nutshell...

Lots of information in this thread about linking. Good? Bad?

Google, Yahoo, AOL, BING all understand that a webmaster has NO control over who links TO your website.

They DO know you have control over WHO you link to.

Remodeling Contractor builds such a great site that authority sites start linking to them = These Are The Best Links. (but wishful thinking on your part - if you build it they will come doesn't fly online)

Remodeling Contractor exchanges links with another remodeler, out of state or in a non-competing area = Good Exchange. Highly relevant.

Remodeling Contractor exchanges links with a plumber = Still a good exchange, you're services are closely related.

Remodeling Contractor exchanges links with a tool supplier = Getting lower on the scale here, but as long as they aren't linking out to a bunch of crappy sites then you are good to go. It's better than NO link.

Remodeling Contractor exchanges links with a acupuncturist = WASTE OF TIME - If the service is not related, or intertwined with what you are doing then it's not a link worth having.

So is linking bad...? No.
Is linking to bad sites bad...? Yes.

There are other factors to consider when it comes to backlinks, but the most important is the relevancy of the two sites completing the exchange.

One-Way links, are obviously desired (site links to you without you linking back) but as a contractor, people aren't going to be scrambling to link to your website. You can get the one-way links from paid directories, article submissions, blog comments, press-releases, and now through social networks or if you want to, 3 way exchanges, which means you need a 2nd site, blog, directory etc.. to link from.

Google Local

This one is important for a contractor as your local listings are usually listed above the actual search results.

If you want to rank highly in Google Local you need the following.

1. Service area(s) and or zip codes in your title tags and/or description.

2. Complete contact page with complete address.

3. Relevant backlinks with your service areas in anchor text.

4. Backlinks coming from Community Sites. And the cool part about this algorithm is you don't actually need a backlink. With the local algorithm you just need to simply have your business mentioned not necessarily a backlink. (backlinks are more valuable but not the be-all-end-all)

eg: you do a local fundraiser event, and your business name is mentioned in an article on the local newspaper website. This would carry weight with Google Local.

If you can find any community business directories that aren't stupidly out to lunch with their listing prices (ideally $50 or less per year) then these are places you DO want to list in. They carry great weight with Google Local. Some Googling will source these for you. (cityname + Business Directory)

5. Testimonials - These are huge and you can essentially screw everything else up with your local listing as long as you have this going for you. Google Local's algorithm weighs in heavily on their own review system (for local businesses). However they also weigh in heavily on 3rd party reviews of services posted to OTHER websites, such as Yahoo Local, Bing Local and a plethora of other well known and larger national business directories where users can post reviews of services.

If you take away one nugget from this post it should be The BEST thing any contractor could do to help with their SEO efforts, is to have their customers review their services in their Google Local, Yahoo Local or Bing Local listings. Even if you don't have a website, if your local service area doesn't have lots of competition, you could get ranked alone on just your positive reviews.

Carl Sorensen

terrymetcalfe · 11-18-2009, 06:34 AM

It is the magic quest - to get to the top of Google!

As you have heard from other people there are many factors involved to get your website to the top of Google.

Such as domain age - the older your domain the stronger it is.
Pagerank - Google's rank of importance which is a scoring system between 0 - 10, the higher your score the more important your website. This score is brought on by getting links from other websites, directories etc (But always remember relevance is the key!)

Before even attempting to work on links you must ensure your website will get picked up by the search engines for your keywords. The factors you need to implement for this are -

Good original content (Never ever copy anyone elses content)
Use the title of your page for mentioning your keywords.
Include a descriptive entry for your Meta Description and again include your keywords.

When writing the content try to include your keywords once or twice within the text and make sure you use H tags as headers for your keywords.

H1 Header must reside at the top of your page above all content.
H2/H3/H4 Headers use around the body of text.

Once you have the above in place your website should get picked up for your keywords at which piont work steadily on getting relevant links to your website which will then steadily increase your keyword positions. Ensure when getting links to your site that you use your keywords as the link to your site, this gives more importance to your keywords.

These are a lot more factors to include, such as anchor text, internal link factors, sitemap etc - but i would end up writing forever.

As long as you stick with the basics above you will find that your site will get ranked. I would then suggest on reading up on other factors to improve upon the basics.