SEOs........the TRUTH, please! - Page 4 - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

karunnt · 10-15-2009, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msteinhoff

My number one rule of thumb when hiring SEO experts is that their web page must place in Google. That company has a Google Page Rank of zero.

The company you suggest has a web address of OnlineSalesConsulting.com and their TITLE is 'Online Sales Consulting' yet, when I type 'online sales consulting' in Google, their web site isn't in the first 50 results.

Also a bad sign, Justin (the CEO) is using an @gmail.com address instead of an address hosted on his own domain. (My five-year-old has firstname@lastname.net. Certainly the CEO of a technology and marketing company could do the same.)

Google Analytics isn't being used on his site either as far as I can tell which makes me think he isn't serious about proving results.

Finally, though his web site is built with Wordpress (a very SEO-friendly platform), Justin hasn't taken the most minimal of steps as to turn on SEO-friendly permalinks, instead choosing to have has pages named as database pointers.

For an SEO/Marking company, the Page Rank of zero is a huge red flag. My own Backyard Raised Vegetable Garden has a Google Page rank of 3 and, believe me, ain't nothing that exciting about my squash. If I can do it, a professional SEO firm should be able to as well.

Cheers,
Matt

Quite a nice thrashing you gave this business person Matt. Thanks for setting the rest of us on the path to righteousness.

Pro Builder · 10-16-2009, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karunnt

Quite a nice thrashing you gave this business person Matt. Thanks for setting the rest of us on the path to righteousness.

It doesn't take much to critisize a site that is 5 days old and under construction. Try googling "New York Marketing" which gets over 1,000 hits a day. #1 spot.

Try "San Diego Marketing" which is getting 6,000 hits a month. Another 3 spot.

Online Sales Consulting gets around 200 hits a month. Why should I target that keyword?

But who am I to convince a contractor he should increase his sales? Its up to them when they are ready.

Magic Hammer · 10-16-2009, 06:36 AM

Your company may be good at what it does, however your Alexa rank is 4,490,048. That's not very good.

karunnt · 10-16-2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magic Hammer

Your company may be good at what it does, however your Alexa rank is 4,490,048. That's not very good.

only measures traffic from people using Alexa toolbar

Vince_B · 10-16-2009, 09:29 AM

I've been feeling my way through the dark on this. I've been using Google Analytics to rate the job I'm doing. I only count local traffic since I can't service the others. I figure the traffic that comes from links and search is due to my seo efforts. The traffic that comes from people typing in my company name in their browser or in a search engine is due to branding. I also place importance on bounce.

So far I've figured out it's hard to go wrong adding content. It's pretty hard to write about roofing without using good keywords, whether on purpose or by accident. I'm still an amateur when it comes to link building.

I didn't want to be a DIY guy, but I didn't know enough to even know who to hire. It seems like 1% of SEO people are providing value and 99% are stealing money(I don't mean here, but in general).

The other side of the coin is that when I here the truth, sometimes it sounds like BS. CBS Creative wrote a great post about logos which illustrates my point. A year ago I would have wondered if he wasn't just trying to justify charging more, but now I see he was spot on.

I tried to design a logo myself. Bought Fireworks. Spent $10000 in my time learning how to use the software and discovery I'm never going to ba able to design a logo. Paid $300 and got a logo that may expose me to copyright problems. If I'd spent $1000 on a logo from a pro with integrity I would have saved money and had a logo a year earlier.

If I was hiring an seo or a person to provide a package, I'd want to see how his other contractor clients are doing. How many leads is the site getting them and what is the close rate compared to other leads.

Pro Builder · 10-17-2009, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince_B

If I was hiring an seo or a person to provide a package, I'd want to see how his other contractor clients are doing. How many leads is the site getting them and what is the close rate compared to other leads.

BINGO!

PM me when you are in the market to hear reviews.

By the way, sorry to those that critisized my under construction site. I was having a bad day and every point brought up was a valid one. it actually turns out that, during the web building and choosing a design I liked I had put google analytics in the wrong spot, so technically it was not installed.

The bottom line is you can have the fanciest site in the world but if all you do is gouge contractors and offer false promises on half-assed attempts to drum up business, might stand up to scrutiny from the SEO crowd BUT you'll get hanged by your clients.

I'd rather have great press about a bad site than bad press about an Alexa 1 site.

J. Sullivan · 10-18-2009, 02:40 PM

Here's the straight dope about SEO.

SEO does one thing, and one thing only. It positions you on a page of options for people who may be interested in what you do.

That's it. That's all.

I explain this exactly the same way to all my clients. SEO is about traffic, you and your website are where the conversions to customer come in. SEO leads the horse to water, you and your website are what make it drink.

Do you want your site to rank well?

Absolutely. If it's in the Top Ten (ideally the Top Five) then you are going to be exposed to more opportunities, giving you a better crack at conversion. Keyword here is opportunites. Because if you get taken to a dump of a site, you're not going to convert.

(Remember, a dump of a site doesn't mean a simple site, an ugly site, a flash site, whatever. A dump site means something that visitor sees no value in. It's different for every visitor, and every contractor. Take care of what your visitor wants, make it easy to use, and good to look at, and you've got it)

It all works together in a harmonious wheel.

On a side rant, Alexa, Google Page Rank, and all those other silly things are for (excuse the geek speak here) noobs. Want to hear what Google thinks of Google Page Rank? Click here. Straight from their mouth.

Alexa is useless. What do you care how you rank against other websites? Does that help fill your wallet? A better thing to do would be look at competing companies, check out there websites, and see how you can do better than them.

Don't get sucked in by razzle dazzle words and phrases.

This is how you pick a web guy. Ask him if he offers a money back guarantee on anything he promises you. There you go.

Sorry for my militant attitude, I'm still smarting from the Red Sox crash and burn, and the Patriots flop last week. Hopefully today will be better.

Hope I helped shed a little light. I'll be here all week

Pro Builder · 10-18-2009, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J. Sullivan

Here's the straight dope about SEO.

SEO does one thing, and one thing only. It positions you on a page of options for people who may be interested in what you do.

That's it. That's all.

I explain this exactly the same way to all my clients. SEO is about traffic, you and your website are where the conversions to customer come in. SEO leads the horse to water, you and your website are what make it drink.

Do you want your site to rank well?

Absolutely. If it's in the Top Ten (ideally the Top Five) then you are going to be exposed to more opportunities, giving you a better crack at conversion. Keyword here is opportunites. Because if you get taken to a dump of a site, you're not going to convert.

(Remember, a dump of a site doesn't mean a simple site, an ugly site, a flash site, whatever. A dump site means something that visitor sees no value in. It's different for every visitor, and every contractor. Take care of what your visitor wants, make it easy to use, and good to look at, and you've got it)

It all works together in a harmonious wheel.

On a side rant, Alexa, Google Page Rank, and all those other silly things are for (excuse the geek speak here) noobs. Want to hear what Google thinks of Google Page Rank? Click here. Straight from their mouth.

Alexa is useless. What do you care how you rank against other websites? Does that help fill your wallet? A better thing to do would be look at competing companies, check out there websites, and see how you can do better than them.

Don't get sucked in by razzle dazzle words and phrases.

This is how you pick a web guy. Ask him if he offers a money back guarantee on anything he promises you. There you go.

Sorry for my militant attitude, I'm still smarting from the Red Sox crash and burn, and the Patriots flop last week. Hopefully today will be better.

Hope I helped shed a little light. I'll be here all week

There you go! A highly converting website is half the battle.

As a side note, I would say that any promises, even with a money back guarantee, should be looked at skeptically. Promises in a business that is largely dictated by the whims of huge corporations like google is a tought thing to do.

J. Sullivan · 10-19-2009, 09:54 AM

Well I'm glad my abrasive tone didn't scare too many people off yesterday haha. The Pats crusssssshhhed them (albeit so could my old high school team, the Titans are awful) and TB looked good, so I'm feeling better.

I've got to disagree with you ProBuilder, a money back guarantee cuts the pie in the sky promises down to the actual reality. You can't lie and promise "the number one spot in Google in three weeks!" because guess what, if you can't produce, you don't get paid. I think it tempers some peoples claims.

I know I've won work because of my money back guarantee. Clients have told me they feel much more comfortable because it takes the risk off them, and what is usually a more than $1000 purchase. Why wouldn't they want their ass covered?

Do I promise them the whole first page in Google? No.
Do I promise it will bring in $10000 in sales in the first week? No.
Do I promise that everyone will forget completely about their competition and they would be so top of mind with their area that they are going to win a seat in the Senate purely off of name recognition? .... I did promise that once. But I was joking.

If your SEO guy is honest with you, he'll tell you that it's going to take time. I sell SEO in blocks of 4 months because of it. I educate my clients on what keywords are going to swing, what ones are lame ducks, and which ones there isn't a snow balls chance in hell on ranking unless you are going to pay me big bucks to work on your campaign full time. My money back promise further cements the no bull**** attitude I have with clients.

The reality of it all is that while Google is always adapting their algorithm, SEO companies (legit ones) shouldn't have a hard time getting you consistently to the top. And staying there.

Too many "SEO gurus" who get flaky on the Google algorithm forget what it is Google does. It finds the most relevant content to the users search. Boom. The algorithm can change all it wants, but it's only going to get better at finding what the searcher wants. How can they be detrimental to your rankings if you know what you're doing?

Easy answer - It Can't

If you are looking for an SEO company, know this. To rank highly, SEO needs two things.

Time.
Consistent work.

It can take you anywhere from a couple days to a year to get to the top spot. In my experience, I have found that within 4 months you'll know how your keyword is going to swing. On my blog, I have an SEO experiment going on right now, where I track daily how long it's taking me to get to number one in Google for two different keywords. One of them shot up 4 pages in 24 hours. The other, went up 2 spots. Same amount of work. So while there is a little bit of mystery wrapped in the Google Algorithm, I'm confident that I know what I'm doing to bring them to the top.

But just in case, I offered myself a money back guarantee as well

In summation, and for those who skip my blunderings on and just want the meat, here you go:

SEO isn't as hard as people make it seem. But it does take a level of dedication and patience that people don't want to do. At the very least it takes weekly work or you will lose to someone who is putting the time in.

It's just like lifting weights. You put in the time, you gain muscle. You want to keep the muscle, you consistently work out. You stop working out, and you're not going to keep the muscle you've had, and your gym partner who continues to work out is going to get bigger.

Substitute SEO for weights, muscle for ranking, and your gym partner for your competition. If you want to drop the bar when spotting him, that's all you baby

I'm always here to help,

Justin

cbscreative · 10-19-2009, 11:51 AM

Justin, I've agreed with pretty much everything you said, but my reaction to a money back guarantee was similar to Pro Builder's since we can't control Google. I've never promised money back for that reason (and because it takes time like you said), but I have always been able to deliver the goods and use examples to prove it when clients are understandably concerned. You are absolutely right that changing algorithms should not concern a good SEO person, I preach the same soap box message. Well stated.

Apparently you do not have this issue, but I will state it anyway just because I always wonder about it with any kind of guarantees. There is another factor I can't control and that is the client. When I work on a web site, it is a cooperative effort. The client has responsibilities too. Quite frankly, I don't always get everything I ask for, or they don't always do what I suggest. Sure, I work around it, and I have great relationships with clients, that's not a problem.

Since this is a contractor forum, let me use a hypothetical just because contractors are notorious for no-shows or not following up correctly (certainly no one here would do that, I'm just illustrating a point). So the web site generates leads, but people calling get voice mail and calls are not returned or competitors respond better and faster. Or the contractor is late or doesn't show for an estimate. Now they hopefully wouldn't blame me for that, but there are numerous factors that I can't control.

I can and will provide assurances, and I can provide examples and references, I've just always held the position that "guarantees" are either subjective or like asking for trouble. I appreciate your insights, but your assertion that a guarantee should be expected by the client as a sign of legitimacy can be argued either way. It obviously works well for you, but I think it's a stretch to say I should be required to do the same thing. You've challenged my thinking, now hopefully I can return the favor.

J. Sullivan · 10-19-2009, 12:29 PM

CBS, I saw you reading the post and I was eagerly anticipating your reply. I'm going to keep this brief, as this is an SEO thread, but here are my thoughts on the money back guarantee.

Don't offer one.

Of course I say that in jest. It's my USP, it's my competitive advantage, and if every Tom, Dick, and Harry use it then it doesn't differentiate me.

I've never really heard a solid reasoning against offering one, and please don't think I'm insulting you or attacking you. I've come to admire and respect your opinion.

The way I look at my guarantee is that if I am doing the absolute best work I can, I know I'm going to get the results I have promised the client.

Without offering a guarantee, you're (not you specifically of course) kind of saying I don't know if this is going to work, but pay me anyway, and let's see how it goes.

All a guarantee does is foster honesty. Your promises have to be realistic and deliverable. I won't bull**** my clients, I give them the straight dope.

If you do X then y will happen, and you get z.

If you don't, then this will happen. Which do you want to do?

That's what I guarantee. You can't promise things you can't deliver on, especially to a service based trade like contractors.

And if you can't promise a particular result, whether it's because of a decision they made or because of outside factors, tell them!

High Price Services and Trades websites are mostly built about one thing - getting people in the sales pipeline. They are doorways to the actually selling process. Nobody is dropping 50k on something without talking to a human.

I'm not the human piece, so I don't promise you'll make a bijillion dollars with my website. I could give you the best website in the world, and you could crap all over it, ignore your customers, burn the addition down, whatever. I have no control over that.

So why would you guarantee the human aspect?

You wouldn't. Just like auto manufacturers don't offer warranties on cars that somebody tried to run on grape jelly instead of gasoline.

I can't control all kinds of external factors like the economy (local and national), the business owners prices or surly attitude

, or how fast they respond to potential customers.
But I can control the quality and professionalism of their website and the quality and level of their page ranking. And if Google changes, I'll change so they don't lose position.

Do I promise the number one spot? Rarely.

Do I promise Page 1? Almost every day.

I'm in business to give them the best shot at making money from their website.

In the end, clients pay my bills and bought my new truck. They're the boss. All I can do is suggest things to max the potential of the site, and if they choose not to go with those suggestions, I tell them what the potential pitfalls are. They understand what the results will be, and we go from there.

All a money back guarantee does is demonstrate honesty and transparency. If you are honest with your clients and tell them what the results of their decisions will be, positive or negative, then the guarantee isn't even a factor.

J. Sullivan · 10-19-2009, 12:36 PM

Oh and I didn't mean to suggest that's how you should run your business

I would never make an assumption or press upon someone that my way is the only way.

Diversity is the spice of life and all that junk, and I wish you nothing but the best

cbscreative · 10-19-2009, 12:41 PM

The respect is mutual, Justin. Although I've never offered the money back guarantee, there's really no reason I couldn't since getting on page 1 has never been a problem. But I also can't say I've lost the sale from not guaranteeing either. I suppose it's possible, but like you, I build my client relationships on honesty and trust. For the time being, you still have your USP.

No offense was taken either.

J. Sullivan · 10-19-2009, 12:43 PM

Roger that, and I appreciate it

Split an e-six pack with you anyday

cbscreative · 10-19-2009, 12:47 PM

Deal. Sam Adams, Beck's, Bell's (if they have it in your area), or some other great choice of "real" e-beer.

J. Sullivan · 10-19-2009, 08:33 PM

----
Realized without previous post it doesn't make sense. Removed.

bob-contractor · 10-26-2009, 03:08 PM

no one should EVER have to pay $20,000 for "SEO" there are so many scam SEO's out there it's a shame. I am an in house SEO/web developer at a major manufacturing web 2.0 company. We rank top 3 for hundreds of the most competative terms in the industrial space. Much of this is due to me. Hard economic times have me here going for some freelance gigs. If you would like help with your sites SEO, message me and I will prove who I am and my results. My rates are competitive as I believe in transparency. You will get both results and knowledge of how "SEO" is done if you would like to know. I will only be taking on a maximum of three clients from these forums, so let me know soon.

JoeS · 10-26-2009, 05:16 PM

This whole topic of SEO, meta words is very interesting. I am just a guy with a property preservation company who is trying to get more biz. I have read the posts and have gotten ideas from them! I am trying to get inbound traffic to pull me up in rankings. My brother is helping me with statistics of the meta words, and it DOES appear that it can become a full time job. As one of the owners, I cannot devote all my time to tweeking my site. I think good old fashioned personal cold calling is helpful as well along with emailing.
Thanks for all of your help. I will be back soon.
Joe
Forever Florida One
727.421.1794

cbscreative · 10-26-2009, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob-contractor

no one should EVER have to pay $20,000 for "SEO" there are so many scam SEO's out there it's a shame. I am an in house SEO/web developer at a major manufacturing web 2.0 company. We rank top 3 for hundreds of the most competative terms in the industrial space. Much of this is due to me. Hard economic times have me here going for some freelance gigs. If you would like help with your sites SEO, message me and I will prove who I am and my results. My rates are competitive as I believe in transparency. You will get both results and knowledge of how "SEO" is done if you would like to know. I will only be taking on a maximum of three clients from these forums, so let me know soon.

Your post is a bit confusing, bob. I don't know where you pulled that $20k price from so I have no reference to see it in context to know what you were even referring to. You should quote the post you are referring to.

There's something else that doesn't make sense either. You refer to pulling in top 3 results on competitive keywords and then point out that hard economic times have you freelancing. Did I miss something? Why would you need to freelance if you brought so much success to your employer? Or are they just ungrateful hogs and you're trying to get the noose off your neck?

karunnt · 10-26-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob-contractor

no one should EVER have to pay $20,000 for "SEO"

Sure they can.

http://www.seomoz.org/blog/how-to-price-an-seo-campaign

Some companies put down 100k/month on Adwords alone. This is how Google makes it's money? It's a matter of ROI not advertising cost. If you are getting a return you will spend. It's as simple as that.