Mike Finley

I build my business in the community I work in and I build something, people see your name in different advertisement medias you start to build a name.

I build my business by showing up at doors of customers who I got from a lead service and that lead service goes away and so do I like I never existed before.

Nobody you service as a customer you got off a lead service will ever say - Oh yeah we called you because we seen you on that lead service for years.

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bathroom remodeling - Denver, Lakewood, Littleton, Arvada, Westminster, Centennial, Highlands Ranch, Lone Tree, Englewood Colorado.

DarrenS

I get paid by the contractor. Some very small, some large, some national and even international, some franchised, some franchisors. But at the end of the day, I know who my partners are.

-Darren

480sparky

So in conclusion, you take our money to serve the homeowner.

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By the time you can make ends meet, they move the ends.

DarrenS

You will agree that there are different types of lead services though right? Just as there are different contractors. Some better, some worse, in both instances. I don't disagree that the points you make are valid, and you all should be pissed...at the companies that provided that service, but not at an industry as a whole right?

I think it all starts off with the definition of what a lead is. Is a lead a prospect who has been sold to 5 or 6 different contractors simply because they were looking for information on tub resurfacing, of course not, and that unfortunately is what most of you were sold.

Point is, just like snow flakes, companies that provide marketing services to the home improvement industry are different too and deserved to be judged on their own ability as I would yours, not your industry. That makes sense right?

-Darren

DavidC

I gotta differ with you here. Once we contact a customer from any source it's up to us to make the lasting impression. I was a fan of the Internet Lead Generators, now am quite the opposite, but the few good clients I got form them are mine solid. They no longer have a need to turn to the internet for a contractor. At least until I drop the ball.

Good Luck
Dave

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www.CookContractingLLC.com

"If the front door is locked, check all the windows and if that fails cut a hole in the roof." BenHur

DarrenS

Well, we market to consumers for contractors for you to serve the home owner.

Tinstaafl

There's the rub. If you are going to provide any given lead to me and me only, I can only imagine that you must be charging an exorbitant fee. Why shouldn't I just bypass you and hire a PR firm instead?

DarrenS

Pricing is typically comparable actually since we don't have to provide thousands of refunds a day .

PR firms are for branding and I don't know many contractors that have ad budgets that don't require a direct return on investment. You have to ask yourself, for every one dollar in marketing you spend, how many dollars do you want back? Then go find the medium that provides that. For some, it is word of mouth, for others, they are married to the good old fashioned Yellow Pages, and still others have turned to online methods.

Point is, doesn't matter what gets it done, as long as you can make payroll on Friday!

480sparky

Don't have to, or just don't?

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By the time you can make ends meet, they move the ends.

DarrenS

Sparky, I'm am not SM, and I didn't wrong anyone here, and I am fine with spirited debate, but unless I have harmed your business in some way, I would appreciate keeping those types of comments to yourself, thanks. -Darren

480sparky

1. I never said you were SM, so that's irrelevant.

2. You didn't make any attampt to answer the question, which makes it look like I've hit a nerve.

3. It was a fair question, so by not answering it, it bring many other questions to bear. Since I am 100% totally unfamiliar with your business, and practices, is there a reason for not cluing us in on your refund policy?

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By the time you can make ends meet, they move the ends.

DarrenS

If you asked me "hey Darren, what is your refund policy?" I would happily answer. Instead, you responded by saying " Don't have to or just don't".
Don't position it as a request for info, you knew what you were doing.


It wasn't a fair question, it was an accusatory question with an undertone that we cheat people. And no, I don't have to, but thanks for asking. Our refund policy credits anyone who has any bad data (name, address, phone, email, etc.) which would be tough in the first place since all respondents are double opt in verified to protect you and me from cann-spam issues.

Forgive my edge Sparky, but the question seemed only to make a derogatory point, if it wasn't, then my apologies. Like it or not, this is how our company feeds our families and we take it seriously just like you guys.

480sparky

OK, you want a fair question, here's one:

You state you give a refund who gets "bad data (name, address, phone, email, etc.)". Does 'etc' mean if I pay for a whole-house remodel lead (let's say, kitchen & master bath update and total basement finish) and I contact the customer who then only wants a new screen door installed, would I get a refund?

Not being involved with lead gen outfits, I have no experience with them. But I've heard stories of contractors paying hundreds of dollars for leads that state the customer wants an entire shopping list of work to be done, then call only to find it's a 1-hour job. Net result: the lead cost more than the job.


Also, what does "respondents are double opt in verified to protect you and me from cann-spam issues" mean?

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By the time you can make ends meet, they move the ends.

DarrenS

Ok, great question. And the short answer is yes, but you wouldn't get that from what we do and here is why. For example, if you said to me you wanted whole house remodel jobs, then the campaign really should be broken down into components (bathroom. kitchen, etc.) and here is why.

For May ( the last full month of data) there were 90k searches for "bathroom remodel" 135k for "kitchen remodel" and only 390 for whole house remodel, and that is nationally. So while you may want to get the entire home, you would get much better traction (and much higher conversion rates!) by breaking down the house by it's rooms...and just one job would pay for any one of our campaigns 20x over!

Now, your next question, double opt-in verified. Works like this:

Customer finds our landing page->opts-in via email->they receive an email that basically states "hey, you requested information from ABC company and we want to make sure it's you, you will be sent a link that you have to click to confirm your request.->link comes, they verify their email address and they begin to get our information. And that, in short, is double-opt in verification.

It simply states that the homeowner came to us to request our information and didn't email or "spam" them first.

Jason W

Darren,

One of the biggest issues most of us have with online marketing through lead services is that most will use the company name of the contractor to help market their services. While this is seemingly a good thing, most of us have found that this positions the lead provider ahead of our own direct marketing abilities and goals.

When contractors start their own web sites and do a search to find that the lead services are coming out ahead of their own web site(s) and using the business names to do it, this is where the sh!t hit the fan. What do you do, if anything to not step on the contractors toes? Nothing I hate more than the thought of someone looking for my company because of the good name I've made for it and having them go through a service to contact me because your better positioned on the seach engine using MY company name!

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http://vtrenovations.com/
Vermont Historic Preservation Group
New Venture Blog

DarrenS

You couldn't be more right! That's why we don't use your company name or site at all. In fact, you don't even have to have a website for that matter!

There is another issue with having another company brand on your back. Let's say you are a painter in Boston, and you partner with companies like SM that brand their name first, if a plumber in Los Angeles upset a SM customer, and the customer goes onto ripoffreport.com and starts blasting the plumber in the name of SM, then that is also going to come up in the search engines, and all your hard work get's lumped in with the plumber in LA that upset his customer. Why? Because SM brands their name first, then yours. Thanks, -Darren

Mike Finley

Sure it does. Unfortunately, in 5 years I've never found a single online lead service I would use. I suppose there is always a possibility you're the exception to all of them, and I suppose I could win the lottery tomorrow too.

I've seen every derivative there is, from the ad words campaigns to directory landing pages hosted by the lead service. It all comes down to a middle man adding cost to the leads or a middle man who combats the added costs associated with what they do by lowering their costs by deluting the leads. Either way, middle man in a dying industry, desperately trying to hang on to the false theory that brokering leads because the internet exists is a viable business model.



You're talking about a different subject. Yes, any customer you do work for you have the opportunity to make them a referral source. But that wasn't what I was referring to.

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bathroom remodeling - Denver, Lakewood, Littleton, Arvada, Westminster, Centennial, Highlands Ranch, Lone Tree, Englewood Colorado.

DarrenS

Mike, at this point I just happy that you didn't lump me in with whomever it was that has given you such a bad taste on the industry. But, without going back pages and pages, can I ask what soured you so badly? I ask because you really do have a deep resentment and I am just wondering what it is exactly that has gotten you to this point. Not to belabor a point, but not everyone in marketing is evil, so there has to be something specific?

Thanks!
-Darren

Mike Finley

Come on now. You act as if there are 2 bad apples out of 2000.

Darren, contrary to what you believe, you're not the first person to be doing exactly what you are doing on this site. About every 2 months somebody like you comes here and does exactly what you are doing.

So tell us exactly how your lead service works. Tell it to us by describing how it works.

For example don't tell us - we help contractors maximize their marketing dollars...

instead tell us -- for $49.00 a month we provide a listing on our website directory for 1 year

Let's hear how you've got this all figured out.

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bathroom remodeling - Denver, Lakewood, Littleton, Arvada, Westminster, Centennial, Highlands Ranch, Lone Tree, Englewood Colorado.

DarrenS

Hey Mike, that wasn't why I was asked and sorry if it came off salesy . I was just trying to get a better understanding. As far as what I do, as I said, I am not here to pitch anyone. I follow Google updates on SM because I compete with them and there has been a ton of traffic from here so I just thought I would stop by and see what was going on.