What's Wrong With My Floor?

JT1

My contractor has recently installed unfinished Brazillian cherry wood floor. They have applied 7 coats of dura seal X-terra with GLOSS finish so far with limited success. The issues are as follows:
1. Surface is rough and full of bubbles
2. Some coats appear dull like satin
3. Lap marks around the wall borders
4. Finish film is fuzzy looking
5. Applicator residuals in coat

I'm trying to help the poor guys and need some advice. Could the above related to the following:
Issue #1:
Possibly insufficient time for the X-terra to "settle" after mixing and shaking parts A and B? Wrong applicator? They used a roller.

Issue #2:
Possibly a quality control issue with X-terra where different types of finish were mixed up (i.e. Satin in Gloss labelled gallon) or inconsistent chemical composition? Any recommendation for a better floor finishing?

Issue #3:
A side effect of applying varnishing at 2 separate times, they might have started varnishing the entire room border first and worked their way in?

Issues #4 & #5:
Possibly due to the roller and the type of roller they used? I don't know the kind of roller they used but it left "hair" residual in the coat. Will a synthetic bar foam applicator out perform and provide a smoother finish than roller?

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
JT

ProWallGuy

Are you the contractor or homeowner?

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JT1

I'm an electrical contractor and hired hardwood contractor to do my flooring at home.

reveivl

My hardwood flooring guy uses a rubber "squeegee". Pours the finish on the floor and then squeegees it towards the the door, leaves and comes back the next day for the final coat. I've never had a complaint from a customer. Rich.

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Big Dave

7 coats...Holy crap. Most floor finishes only require 3 or 4. It sounds to me like they don't know what they are doing. Have they abraded any of the coats before applying the next?

A roller is fine as long as it is one made for that application. They might take some tape and try to pull the loose fibers before use.

I'm not familiar with the x-terra but if it is a water base finish (and it sounds like it is) they need to have all the windows and doors closed so as not to allow any air movement.

They need to not cut in so far ahead, ie only enough to roll out within the next 5 minutes or so.

Water based finishes are more difficult than oil and will show lap marks more if they're not careful.

As far as the sheen differences I'm not sure. Gloss is not my favorite choice.

Last thing, how close do you have to get to notice alot of what you mentioned. Floors are not peices of furniture. Industry standard says that if it cannot be seen from a standing or sitting position it is considered not to be there. Alot of the roughness will go away pretty quickly with cleaning and use.

Hope this helps, Dave.

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JT1

Thanks for your help, Big Dave. Yes, the contrator guys are certainly being challenged by the water-base high gloss finish

They abraded after the 2nd coat and some abrasion in between the subsequent coats. The other problem is is that they didn't tuck after the sanding, they only vacummed the floor after sanding. I could sweep a light wood dust off my fingers. What is the visible effect of the dirty base floor? I'm going to ask them to lightly buff with 220 grit before they apply the 8th coat.

As for the roller residuals, i have asked them to vacumm the roller this last time. It seemed to have improved and may have to live with the residuals that were trapped in the prior coats. I'm kind of reluctant to have them do heavy buffing as I do value the multiple coat "sealing" protection to my floor.

Since this is a hard water-base finish, do you really think the roughness will go away with cleaning and use?

Big Dave

They should be buffing with a maroon pad along with some strips of about 180 grit paper under the maroon pad. They should vacuum and tack with a damp rag.

Yes alot of if not all of the grit in the floor should dissappear after awhile with frequent cleaning and wear.

Hopefully they can get this last coat laid down without any trouble.

Dave.

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JT1

Dave - The contractor guys used a German made buffing machine with a round base. I saw them sticking a few strips of 180 grit papers underneath the base. Is that the same thing as the maroon pad you were refering to?

The 180 grit papers seemed to leave lots visible buffing marks. Hence, I suggested 220 grit. My assumption was 220 being finer might provide a smoother buffing to the coat and leave less marks. Is there a side effect to using 220 grit paper?

Thanks again!

Big Dave

They should be using a maroon pad between the buffer and the strips of sandpaper. The maroon pad is the same thing as a scotchbrite pad.

There shouldn't be any real visisble scratch marks only a good scuffing with lots of white dust.

220 would also be fine.

Dave.

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JT1

Thanks Dave...

I checked out the dura seal website, it seemed to suggest that the bubbles could have been due to too heavy a coat applied and/or previous coat was not completely dry. I suspected the room temparature and humidity not being the cause, I also shut all the ventilation off before and during application to reduce air flow and only turned on the fan, AC, dehumidifiers on 3-4 hours upon application.

Here is what I'm going to suggest to the contractor for their considerations:

1. Using a Maroon Pad along with 220 grit sand papers with light buffing to the coat, hopefully this smoothes it out and reduces visible buffing marks
2. Letting the X-terra settle for 15 or more minutes after mixing before using it
3. Using a synthetic foam bar applicator as recommended by dura seal to reduce leaving applicator marks and residuals
4. Applying border coats within 5 mins of coating the rest of floor
5. Removing socks during application to reduce leaving lint residuals

I will report what happens after this Thursday. Wish me luck!

John

drunkrussian

Holy crap.

7 coats are way too many.

Did they seal the floor? If so what kind of sealer? X-terra is like Bona's Traffic. Can be hard to use if you don't know what your doing, and following the steps are a must.

Buffing w/ a marron pad and the 180 strips (most likely 3m gold strips) is totally fine. Rolling this finish is more of a hassel than others. Also, they don't sound very clean. Possibly using dirty appicators and their buffing pads could have been dirty. As for the bubbles, I have a few ideas, but most likey finish wasn't dry, and didn't "gas off".

Also, the more coats, the more they are going to magnify problems in the floor. And they need to tack before applying the coats. I'd ask for it to be resanded. Not much more to say, I just think they are dirty and have never applied a top of the line commercial poly.

Final thoughts after reading the posts again. The floor should not be gritty. Even if it goes away with cleaning. Thats called being a lazy floor person. Some particulate is accepable, but not over the whole floor. Roller prep with water finish is like using a lambswool for oil. You soak the lambswool in spirits, to get the fuzzies out, with a roller, soak it in water then ring it out. The german machine might be a Lagler Trio. Please make sure they are not using a screen at all. And yes floors are not funiture, but a work of art that gets used and abused. Now like Big Dave said, you do look at the floor from standing position, but too many hacks use the floor is not funiture as an excuse. Lets them apply an ebony stain to some oak, then see what happens.

Big Dave

Thanks for chiming in Drunkrussian. I've seen you around the Floormasters site also.

Dave.

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Donedat

Yep, they should sand it off and start over. It won't get any better with 8 or 20 coats..

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Donedat

Also, it sounds like they don't really know what the heck they are doing. And really, you're not helping them much. It's like the blind leading the blind or a back seat driver trying to tell an old lady where to drive. It don't work. You need a professional.

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drunkrussian

Can you imagine 20 coats? Ha, that would be the funniest thing in the world. Sad part is, from their description, they sound like they would actually do that.

Donedat

No, I can't imagine someone continuing the agony.

I've sanded off six coats that the home owner just couldn't get right. Six coats of OTC water based finish. He just couldn't understand why all the bubbles. Afterwards, I found out that he shook the can vigorously before each application (w/o allowing the finish to settle).

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J DoubleD FLoor

Gotta Luv when the homeowners screw up .... JOB SECURITY, Course we never tell them that. Damn 20 coats ... Just gonna keep adding to the problem ... not fixing it. They are all right, Start over from scratch and make sure it's applied properly and you'll only need at the most 3 to 4 coats.

Still laughing bout the 20 coats

Double-A

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ccoffer

It needs to come off. The more you keep stacking on the crappier it is going to look.

JT1

Here is the update... The contractors applied one more coat for a total of 8 coats. Guess what? Gassing started to happen, steam-looking air patches appeared everywhere. They gave up and blamed the problem at Dura Seal inconsistent chemical composition.

So, they called in the Dura Seal account manager to take a look at my floor. He was shocked by the 8 coats applied, like everyone here was saying, he agreed that the problem was further compounded with additional coats. He advised the contracting guys to resand the floor, they did and he also personally came in to supervise the work and giving them guidance on application techniques.

The results are much better now, bubbles are gone and application has been more even with virtually no lap marks. The process they have been going through is as follows:

1. Tacked thoroughly after sanding (before the floor was full of saw dust)
2. Applied the DuralSeal Superbase sealer as Brazilian Cherry is very oily
3. Applied the first coat of varnish using the Padco 18" T-bar synthetic applicator. Trick is they poured more varnish to be "snow" plowed, the result is a smoother finish. The rapplicator is also right for the water based gloss finish.
4. Buffed away the bubbles and grits with coarser grade maroon pad (instead of sand paper. The scuff marks are now virtually invisible)
5. Tacked thoroughly and applied the 2nd coat under a commerical grade spotlight. The spotlight showed everything, so they were able to correct any lap marks/imperfections as they were applying the finish.

I have to say these are not the cleanest contractors. They picked up some grass with their shoes and left them as residuals in the finish. They will have to somehow get rid of the "coated" grass. Sigh...

I've one or two more coats to go and will report the final finishing product. One quick question, is sealer considered a coat in the varnish as an industry standard? I paid for 4 coats of Dura Seal Xterra varnish and they are claiming that the sealer is counted as a varnished coat.

Thanks for all who have been helping. Stay tuned...

John