Vinyl self stick tiles question - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Mike Finley · 03-30-2006, 05:39 PM

I didn't even know people still were installing this stuff, but I looked at a job today that involves it. There is one layer of self stick already down, probably at least 20 years old. I see Armstrong recommends going over it and not removing it which is fine with me. Upon inspection of the existing floor about 99% of it is in great shape, no lifting. There are only 1 or 2 tiles with a lifting edge that I found. I am going to use a embossing leveler over the original floor as required, but what is the best scenario for those 2 tiles? Would you cut out the lifting area and use the embossing leveler to fill in the depression left? Would you glue the edges down and forget about them? Would you take out both tiles completely and replace then go over or take out both completely and use the embosing leveler.

Also is the embossing leveler designed to fill such a gap or do you use a floor patching compound for that.

Is sanding an embossing leveler comon or would you want one that you just apply and be done with?

PrecisionFloors · 03-30-2006, 07:21 PM

Peel n stick is pretty thin usually Mike, I would just cut out the loose area and fill it with patch. If you are good with a trowel ther is no need to sand after embossing. I just take a very dull scraper blade (or a sharp one turned around backwards) over it to smooth out any lumps. Btw embossing leveler is just floor patch with latex added to it, really the same stuff. If you can find it I highly recommend Ardex Feather finish- best patch on the market by far.

IHI · 03-30-2006, 10:49 PM

We use Ardex quite a bit in our "low budget" bathroom renovations where existing floor is in the typical shape your dealing with for a recover. We've actually filled upto 12"x12" voids where tile was missing with this stuff.

Try to use the leveler the day before (you dont need to if if thin and you have fans you can do it all in one day but you need to work fast)the next day you can just "cut off" the high spots with a trowel/stiff drywall knife and proceed as normal. Treat it the same as hot mud in the sence if you can catch some riplles or glops prior to leaving and letting it set up to full hardness, it's easier to cut it down at that stage than after it's set up....just like concrete when it's dry.

Mike Costello · 03-31-2006, 02:32 PM

Every damn time I have covered lick em stick em with either more peel and stick or even a glued luxury vinyl tile I have had issues with shrinkage. ( no not the klind that happens after swimming.)

It's my belief that vinyl tile are just not stable enough to go over.
I would recommend either heating them up and taking them out or putting in a new subfloor.

And embossing leveler and portland base patch are NOT the same thing.

If you do use ardex to skim coat be sure to use the primer first or your askin for trouble.

PrecisionFloors · 03-31-2006, 06:59 PM

With the current floor being down 20+ years I doubt there will be a shrinkage issue but thats just my experience. What is embossing leveler then exactly, if not patch with a latex additive? I am curious and always willing to learn.

Mike Finley · 03-31-2006, 07:00 PM

Jeez Mike, now why did you have to go and pee all over my leg like that? Everything was going just fine till you threw those comments in!

This is getting like a brain surgeon is being asked to put a bandaid on somebodies cut and he isn't able to do it!

From Armstrong: "Armstrong recommends that whenever possible you leave the existing resilient floor covering in place and go over the top with your new floor. Filling the embossing of the existing resilient flooring with S-199 Embossing Leveler or S-194 Patch, Underlayment and Embossing Leveler mixed with S-195 Latex Additive before installation (residential only).
"

Now why do you have to go and throw that wrench in my plans? When they say resilient flooring is it actually only sheet vinyl or is it self stick vinyl tile also?

Mike Costello · 03-31-2006, 09:38 PM

20 Years is a very long time to ask the glue on the back of a peel and stick tile to not become crystalized. 9 times out of ten real old peel and stick will come up with minimal effort. That is if its really what you think (lick em stick em ). But even old cut back or clear set tile adhesive will crystalize after 20 years.

I would be concerned with the tensil strength of a new adhesive and a new floor ,pulling up the tile beneath.

If the tiles become disconnected underneath, your new floor will certainly shrink.

Ardex and products like it such as Mapaie (sp?) Plani Patch or Henry's Cementicious Skimcoat are designed for feather finishing and patching seams in plywood or filling impressions on concrete.

When they get watered down alot, like in the consitancy you would need to emboss a vinyl, the polimer to cement ratio becomes alot lower. Thet reduces the ability of the patch to bond with the surface. Kind of like waterin down the whiskey.

Most true embossing levelers are pre mixed wet in a can type. They are way more resin based with urethane , or something like it as the hardening-bonding agent. It takes longer to set but its a far more resilient texture than cured Portland Cement.

You can still use Ardex or a product like it to skim but if you read the directions on the bag it will tell you to use thier primer first. Its very tacky once it sets and you apply it with a roller. Very similar to the primer you would use under self leveling cement.

Mike Costello · 03-31-2006, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

Jeez Mike, now why did you have to go and pee all over my leg like that? Everything was going just fine till you threw those comments in!

This is getting like a brain surgeon is being asked to put a bandaid on somebodies cut and he isn't able to do it!

From Armstrong: "Armstrong recommends that whenever possible you leave the existing resilient floor covering in place and go over the top with your new floor. Filling the embossing of the existing resilient flooring with S-199 Embossing Leveler or S-194 Patch, Underlayment and Embossing Leveler mixed with S-195 Latex Additive before installation (residential only).
"

Now why do you have to go and throw that wrench in my plans? When they say resilient flooring is it actually only sheet vinyl or is it self stick vinyl tile also?

I may have covered your questions in my last post (hopefully)

But on another note, alot of the reason Armstrong recommends not ripping out is because of asbestos or other contaminents that can be released during demo.

I also believe that covering resilient applies more towards sheet goods than resilient tile.

Edited to add: Hats off to you for caring enough about what you do to actually posess an Armstrong book to refer to.

**Teetorbilt** · 03-31-2006, 09:51 PM

I always peel everything. Turned out that the last 'stickies' that I removed were held in place mostly by gravity. There were a few tough spots but 95% of the area almost self ejected.

Bud Cline · 03-31-2006, 10:47 PM

Mike,

Armstrong is recommending going over that tile because that tile contains asbestos. When in doubt - encapsulate.

I too would be concerned about the new tile installation being totally dependent on the twenty-year-old adhesive. The thing is...the old adhesive will be a contact adhesive and they don't all crystalize over time, they just stay sticky forever maybe.

At any rate, if you emboss that old tile do it right the first time so you don't have to sand it or you'll be sanding into the asbestos.

If it where me and it where here, I would remove the old tile and not stack my reputation on top of all those layers.

I would keep it friable (scrape it up in as large of pieces as possible) Wet it, keep it wet as I go (to control dust), bag it properly and declare it at the dumpsite. The thing is I'm not familiar with Colorado asbestos remediation laws so check into it first.

Mike Costello · 04-01-2006, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teetorbilt

I always peel everything. Turned out that the last 'stickies' that I removed were held in place mostly by gravity. There were a few tough spots but 95% of the area almost self ejected.

I agree or at the very least (if hieght allows) I put a new subfloor over everything

Mike Finley · 04-02-2006, 11:28 AM

Hey thanks for clearing that up, it seems I was misuderstanding Armstrong's advice about laying over, the asbestos factor makes sense why they are saying that.

Looks like I need to pull it up!

PrecisionFloors · 04-02-2006, 12:06 PM

Original post asked "what is the best scenario for those two tiles" Mike had already made the judgement at that point (or so the info provided told us) to go over it. "Upon inspection of the existing floor about 99% of it is in great shape, no lifting." Thats what I based my response to. Peel n Stick is a crap shoot as to whether it is stuck or not, not really a tweener with that stuff. I have come across several in my years that were stuck like they just got round housed by Chuck Norris yesterday. I went over them. The right way. You do not have to pull every single floor you come across. Don't you think a manufacturer would easily find that as a way to kill a warranty?? Funny thing is they do not, provided the floor is in the shape Mike detailed above. Peel n Stick is thin, I doubt the added 3/32" will cause a major height issue. I will take Ardex Feather Finish over any crap embossing leveler in a can you can come up with and bet my life it will stick better provided it is done right. You can spout your differences to the products all you want, the end result is they are the same, kinda like WD-40 and 2n1 oil are both lubricants used in the context of a squeaky door hinge. I was talking in the context of the discussion at hand not trying to sound smart on the internet.

Bud Cline · 04-02-2006, 01:17 PM

OK guys here's another scenario.

When it comes to a ceramic tile installation replacing any VAT or VCT or vinyl sheet-goods I generally like to remove everything that came before me. The reason for this is the manner in which the previous flooring was installed is unknown.

Oh sure, anyone that doesn't want to go to the trouble to remove existing floor covering can easily convince themselves that the tile/vinyl is stuck down really good and the floor is really in good condition and the existing product is still really flawless after all these years and IT'S TOO HAR-R-R-R-D to get up the old stuff and it has all kinds of sticky glue that won't come up, hell the reasons (excuses) can be endless.

The question an experienced installer must ask is......"Was a 1/4" underlayment used to install this existing floor?"

Oh sure, anyone can install over existing floor coverings and this would be the path-of-least-resistance and the most economical way to do it. In fact I would love to use this approach too!

But in the case of a new ceramic or stone tile installation any movement under the tile will kill a ceramic tile or stone installation in short-order.

These underlayments are nailed or stapled into place and voids exist under the underlayment. As in a hardwood (slat) floor, the movement is there, it may not be readily noticeable, but it is there. But these floorcoverings by their very nature can handle all sorts of flex and movement.

Tile can not.

This is why the specs for installing new cement board (CBU) in preparation for a tile installation mandate the CBU be placed in a bed of thinset before the fasteners are installed. This is to eliminate any voids that would occur when the fasteners where installed.

As the contractor/installer it isn't worth the risk to take shortcuts with the tile. Who bites the bullet when the job fails? If you are a reputable operator - YOU DO. Who suffers along with the customer - YOU DO. Who's reputation is at stake with every job - YOURS IS. Who is back there working for free this time around - YOU ARE.

I have seen comments on every board on the Internet (including this one) where a long-time installer comes along and says he has been installing tile over vinyl for four million years and never had a failure.

He then atkes a step backward, shuffles his feet, and doubles up his fists, and is ready to fight anyone that dares to say he is wrong.

Well he isn't wrong, sure anyone can install tile over anything they want to, but, research and tracking of failures over time have proven this is not a good practice and isn't the best idea.

If the guys that insist tile over vinyl is OK and they are sincere about their chosen trade and they really want to be the experts they tell all their customers they are, then they should do some research and get some schooling. If they were to do that then they would see where their habits are very risky.

So anyway, in my thinking this all boils-down to one thing when it comes to installing hard tile over other existing floorcoverings...

JUST SAY NO.

PrecisionFloors · 04-02-2006, 05:09 PM

I don't see anywhere in the first post about installing CERAMIC. I admittedly ASSumed he was talking about more vinyl tile....(the thread title would lead me to believe this no?)in which case I stand by my posts. If the new floor is to be ceramic then yeah by all means Bud, you are 100% correct and bow my head in internet shame for whatever thats worth

I am starting to think that either not enough info was given on the first post or alot of assumption has taken place. Maybe both.

Btw Bud you are a tile guru in all sense of the word and I do not dispute your experience or knowledge in that arena as it is far beyond mine. I was talking resilient situation only. I go over SINGLE layers of well bonded, structurally sound floors all the time with no problems whatsoever. I do however question those who install ceramic over vinyl, though, like you state alot of installers do it with supposedly no issues. As they say though, it only takes one lol.

Mike Finley · 04-02-2006, 08:33 PM

Hi guys, sorry I should have been a bit clearer, this job is to lay Armstrong self-stick vinyl tiles down, not ceramic. If it was ceramic since this is a concrete slab under the current vinyl I would have simply scraped up the old vinyl and laid the ceramic on the slab. If it was a wooden subfloor I most likely would have screwed hardi over the one layer of self-stick.

I just have no experience with self-stick vinyl, and sheet vinyl I sub out, I figured what the hell, I ought to be able to handle this little install of self-stick as long as I get some good advice from the pros here. Vinyl for me is pretty rare, I really only had 1 call for a new install of it and that was because of the customer being handicapped and a history of taking some falls in the bathroom and vinyl is a bit more forgiving on the body for him then ceramic would be.

Bud Cline · 04-02-2006, 11:02 PM

My fault, sorry about that.

I think I was leaving it open also until something prompted me to make my post (POST #14) about going over ceramic. Then I just went nuts from that point on.

Man I had these keys smokin' too, you should have seen it.

PrecisionFloors · 04-03-2006, 06:58 AM

Funny how darn defensive we can all get sometimes over the internet huh

Mike Costello · 04-03-2006, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrecisionFloors

Funny how darn defensive we can all get sometimes over the internet huh

Lol The typed word has a finality to it that voice inflection doesnt.
The thing is that there is often alot more thn one right way to do stuff. Hopefully people can take bits and pieces from what we all say to form an intelligent desicion

Bud Cline · 04-03-2006, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Lol The typed word has a finality to it that voice inflection doesnt.

Boy ain't that the truth, I can get myself into more trouble than even I can beleive sometimes.

I can sit here and type a bunch of stuff that I think is hilarilously funny and laugh my ass off the whole time. I think: "Look at me, I should be doing stand-up in a club someplace I'm so-o-o-o funny".

I click to post............return the next day, and a hundred and seventeen people are lined up to kick my ass. They're stumbling over one-another trying to get to me. There have even been times when I've thought my 'signature' should be I'M SORRY!

In fact, I think I may have one of those going here right now.