Vinyl Over Vinyl?

chris n

Hey guys, I am a paper hanger, painter by trade but my wife wants a new floor in the basement and I have a question or two. The existing floor is 9 by 9 inch tile(old from the 40's, I would guess, so no doubt asbestos)I did the laundry room area by removing the old tile which came up fairly easily( except for the black glue) and replaced with ceramic, but it is kind of thick and would be expensive to replace the entire basement with. I was wondering about the self stick tile I saw at Blows. Could I just put this on top of the existing or as with wallpaper is it better to remove to old tile? Would regular tile be better?I know the floor has to be almost perfectly smooth for tile as I did my kitchen and ANY piece of crud shows through, that is why I was thinking about going over the existing. Also, just to add , this room CAN get flooded ,it has only happened once in 25 years but I am thinking that this would eliminate ANY type wood product. Any ideas or tips are welcome, thanks.

Chris

Floordude

Like you said, the tiles came up easy. So you want to use this a as base for a full spread vinyl.

I wouldn't do it, unless it is a loose lay vinyl.

When you did your laundry room, you did get all that BOND BREAKING asbestos laced cutback off the substrate, right?

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chris n

I wouldn't do it, unless it is a loose lay vinyl.

Wouldn't do what?

Like you said, the tiles came up easy. So you want to use this a as base for a full spread vinyl.

Forgive me, as I said I am not a floor guy,what does this mean?

When you did your laundry room, you did get all that BOND BREAKING asbestos laced cutback off the substrate, right?

Not sure I got it all but enough to make it smooth.

Floordude

It is kinda like your wallpapering over wall paper that is already peeling off.

Black asbestos laced cutback adhesive is an oil resin, it is a major bond breaker with mortars and adhesives. There are products made "that say" they will encapsulate the bond breaking ability, allowing for successful and lasting installation. There are only one or two thinsets that say they will work, but you better read the fine print at least 3 times, and then follow them to the letter.

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Bozzy

In my opinion sounds like VCT (not peel and stick) may be your best option. I would definately remove the old tiles and scrape up the old adhesive. Seal off the area, vents too, and wear a respirator. The adhesive used for VCT (thin spread) will stick to cutback without bleeding through, if only a thin film is left. If scraping alone is not sufficient, and it usually isn't, you can rent a floor buffer with sanding disc attachment. You will still want to scrape first or it will clog your disc quickly. Make sure you vacume well, as a pebble under VCT looks like a boulder. If you are not familair with the product, it was probably on the floor at Blows.

Floordude

I totally disagree Boz. Clear Spread over any cutback residue is the cause of many many costly VCT failures. The cutback requires encapsulation, with a product like ARDEX SD-F, and skimcoating.

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Bozzy

I have seen some VCT failures (black gook oozing through the joints) and assumed they were from not cleaning the floor well enough. I use Henry's 430 adhesive which claims use over cutback if all puddles and ridges are removed. After scraping and lots of sanding I always test spread an area to see if it bonds properly and have never had a problem. Would appreciate more info on the cause of these failures. Were they just from goining over cutback or were there other factors involved, such as climate, moisture content, alkali, not removing enough residue. Do you know if test spreading is enough or does the reaction take longer. After 28yrs without a failure I find it hard to believe that going over the cutback was the only cause, or maybe I'm really lucky. Thanks for your feedback.

dlcj

as an example of a way not to do it but it worked anyway. I know a guy who built his own house in the early 80s and started out with a cheap vinyl in kitchen. A few years later the wife got tired of it and put down 1'x1' stick down tile right on top of it. You could see the pattern of the vinly right trough the tile but they didnt care. It stayed stuck for 10 years before they decided to go with ceramic. You guessed it, he used mastic and put it down on top of the last floor with no backer board. Its been another 10 years and the tile and grout still looks good ,no cracks or anything and the house is on stilts with 2x8 floor joist spaning 14'! Im not a floor man and never done it before but ive seen a product called embossment filler that you basicly trowel out a thin layer and sand it smooth. this will fill the tile lines and designs. Then put down loose lay vinyl. will probably be the cheapest and easiest. Thats what id do if i could not afford or did not desire ceramic.

Demonseed

One reason black glue will ooze through the seams in the VCT is caused by an installer using Henrys' 130 adhesive and not letting it dry properly. Other reasons could vary, they went over the old cutback adhesive without any remedy, and over time for whatever reason it works it way back up to the surface. I agree 100% with floordude, ardex, then skimcoat. In the long run, it ends up being a much cleaner install. I have worked with guys that have done it your way and it can work, but it is easier just to patch and skim, and you will really notice the difference in the finished product.

chris n

A local flooring co recommended dura ceramic with the proper prep, any problems there?

Bozzy

I am new to this site and really appreciate the info. I will research the skim method and perhaps give it a try. Thanks!

Floordude: Would still be interested in hearing more specifics on these failures if available.

Painter Dude: I believe your question has been answered.

Mike Costello

The new thinset re-activates the cutback and interferes with the setting of your new glue. It will skin over and be tacky to the touch but youll have a sandwich of goo that will come up through the seams of your new tile.

Encapsulating it with a portland based cementicious feather finish is the preferred method

Demonseed

I was going to say something like that, with a reverse oreo cookie analogy, but I was just hungry.

(this is a rant)

How you learn to do things, comes into play. I work with a guy, that is one of the best VCT guys in the State, I ran the line one way, and he said I was growing, because what he was laying was off, but I forgot to tell him there was an unused plate that had been skimmed over at least 3 times. I initially snapped the line thinking, he would start from the far side, when the tile came over the hump, it shrunk the wrong way,so we pulled up 40-50 tiles for cuts. If I had told him this, the error would have went into the walls that were getting based and would not have been visible, instead we pulled up tile, re glued and made the correction.

Mike Costello

lol, once it starts steppin your screwed. very common for patched areas to start it too. I try telling my help that once you bend a sqaure tile its not square anymore

Demonseed

By catching it right away and pulling up the tiles, we were able to stop the stepping with a minor correction, and run the error out to the short side. It was 1100+ SF, rip up of old tile, patch, skim coat, install new tile. Floor came out beautiful, we started Saturday morning 6 am, were done around 4:30pm. Sunday the painters came in, there was an ice machine in an entry area we did, the painters un plugged it to paint, never plugged it back in.
I guess the painters decided I needed to make more money on the job, I got a call today, asking me to come back and fix the area.