Tile On Hardwood

Riversong

Sorry, not quite closed yet.

The dimensional instability of hardwood strip flooring goes without saying.

But R&D seemed to be suggesting that you couldn't even cover a hardwood floor with a backer board and tile - that it had to be torn up.

Aside from the problem of raising the floor level and having to transition it to other floors, leaving the hardwood in place provides the stiffness which is half the reason for using plywood and backer board under tile. Applying a thin 1/4"-3/8" backer board provides the other half: creating a continous membrane and good substrate for thinset.

Are you claiming that this can't work?

- Robert

Bud Cline

Riversong,

Put your gun away, you won't need it.

You called R&D to task for making a statement and not giving any details. I came along and offered the details you asked for, that's all.

From what I know....the tile industry doesn't generally recommend going over existing finish-floor goods with tile. I can't speak for R&D, but knowing his approach and knowing his extensive knowledge in tile installation techniques I can only assume "that" is his thinking behind his comments. It is never good to take the path of least reisitance when it comes to installing a long-lasting ceramic or stone tile floor.

I will also tell you that the use of any of the 1/4" plywood underlayments is also strongly discouraged. I can explain this also so you won't have to ask.

Most all of the 1/4" plywood underlayments are made of mahogany wood, more specifically luan. Luan and moisture dont' get along too well and luan will split and curl and in the case of luan plywood veneers it will delaminate easily. Luan is specifically discouraged for use under ceramic and stone tiles. The introduction of thinset with its moisture content is all it takes to send a sheet of luan on a course of destruction.

What the industry does recommend is "exterior grade plywood" in all cases. Nothing else is acceptable.

The total necessity to absolutely and unfailingly remove all hardwood floorings before installing a ceramic tile system is in some cases agrueable I suppose but none-the less that's the way it is.

If you have ever seen a solid hardwood floor damaged by water or even moisture you would understand this. The slats grow (expand) unbelievably, they experience heavy warping as well as curling and twisting and this creates upheavels that are uncontrollable. The forces that exist during the expansion of hardwoods is almost unimagineable.

The upheavels would wreck a plywood covering and of course take the tile with it. But this would all depend on the amount of moisture and the duration.

So...."Am I claiming this can't work"?

No I'm not. I am simply stating the risks and potential consequences of the action, you do whatever your conscience tells you to do. Why take a chance that could result in high costs to repair the damage when the potential can be so easily removed from the equasion?

R&D Tile

Thank you Mr. Cline.


Now, Remove that HARDWOOD.

Riversong

What "gun"? I'm not trying to be argumentative, simply to challenge dogma that may not always make sense.

Kind of you to explain and to assume that I'm ignorant of such things. I've been a building contractor for 24 years. While I'm not a tile specialist, I've done my share of tile installations.

And, since I specifically mentioned tile backerboard as a substrate and membrane between an existing floor and a new tile installation, I don't know why you thought I was talking about lauan as an underlayment. That might be fine for carpet or sheet vinyl, but would be clearly inappropriate for tile.

If there was a pre-existing moisture problem (crawlspace or basement) causing warpage of the hardwood floor, then installing ANY new floor without correcting the moisture problem would be unprofessional.

If there was no prior warpage of the flooring, then a properly installed tile floor - with proper backerboard underlayment - shouldn't cause a water problem and consequent warpage.

So please have the courtesy to address the questions as they are written, and don't assume that anyone who questions "standard practice" is either a moron, ignorant, or inexperienced.

- Robert

R&D Tile

Hardwood expands and contracts too much with just humidity and changes in temps, it also isn't secured to the floor in a fashion strong enough to support a tiled floor, too much movement, in other words, it shouldn't be in the mix, even if covered.

Also, never install a backerboard over any demensional lumber, you need a layer of OSB or Plywood first.



If you want to take a chance, that's up to you, it's very easy to take up.

Bud Cline

Damn Robert, you seem to have all the makings of a hot-head.

I'll see your 24 and raise you 6.

Now that we have our resumes out of the way I can only say that In all the things I have learned over the years I have never learned to read minds. Certainly not yours. You called on R&D to elaborate on his comments and expand but I see this isn't a requirement for you when you are posting.

I'll not argue with you sonny and unless someone else comes along with a relavant comment I'll stay clear of this topic here in the future, I see it is just too complicated for some to understand.

I will suggest one more potential problem on the topic though in an effort to rehabilitate you and others that think going over hardwood is OK.

What happens in the event of a dishwasher leak, an ice-maker leak, a toilet overflowing, a plumbing leak, a window left open during a rain storm, kids splashing in the tub, etc etc? Why risk it just to be lazy at the outset? Why not do everything possible to protect the consumer from the beginning and simply take the potentially offending product out of the mix to begin with?? Why not follow the proven recommendations of the industry? You drive your nails pointy-end first don't you, you climb a ladder from the bottom don't you, you take your materials to the job before you begin to install them don't you? Why not follow industry recommendations when you install tile? I don't get it!

Addressing the question(s) (issues) is exactly what I have done and in a courteous fashion. Until now maybe. I invite you to ask anyone here what their opinion of my response is, you're the one that went after R&D brimming-over with arrogance, not me. As far as my assuming everyone is either a moron, ignorant, or inexperienced this certainly isn't the case. All I can say to you is: "If the shoe fits".