Ripped Off?

Taurus Flooring

About 4 months ago, I installed a double stick gluedown(carpet over pad). The carpet came to the jobsite with a disclaimer, stating that it was common for the pattern to run off over a 25ft span. Thus, the pattern did not line up. I pointed it out to the customer and the store I was installing it for. They all gave me the go ahead to install it. Three months later, the customer is not happy with how the seams look. After much haggling, the manufacturer sent a rep down to inspect the jobsite. They claimed that I did not "seal" the carpet edge before installing the carpet. Since I was using a hotmelt tape to bind the seams, I figured it was a pointless measure. None of the seam is lifting, but the seams get hairy from vacuuming. Strings of the primary backing keep coming up due to the customer using a powerbar to vacuum. Because I didn't seal the seams (detected by the use of a blacklight), they have refused the claim and have stated I was responsible.
Has anyone had this problem and who agrees with the manufacturer? This is a major problem for carpet installers, because it seems the manufacturer holds all the cards and we are left on our own.

thom

It's not just carpet manufacturers, it's all manufacturers. They will look for something that is not to spec. so they can disclaim responsibility. Then it falls on the installers shoulders.

In New Mexico we are required by law to warranty everything we install for one year. The manufacturers generally run and hide and leave us holding the bag.

J&J Home Imp.

Well I guess I am screwed then. I have never sealed any hot melt seam, if fact I don't even know how.

Taurus Flooring

Not surprisingly, we need a "special" tool to apply the glue(a hotmelt glue) to the edge, then let it dry for 20 minutes and then, do the seam. All this at no extra charge. I've heard some states in the US pay extra for seams, but not in Canada. Considering that the seam is the critical part of the job, it appears we do it out of the love for the job (yea right!). Is it any wonder, that the worker pool for experienced installers is drying up. I know I'm seriously considering giving up installing carpet and stick to easier products which just happens to pay better too.

PrecisionFloors

Taurus don't take this the wrong way, and I do not wish to start a flame fest but... That's the difference between an "installer" and a business person. Some people are one and not the other while some are both. You should charge what you need to, to do the job right. Only you know what you need to charge to make a job profitable enough to be worth doing. Do not let others dictate to you what YOUR business should and could be. If you do, you are no longer self-employed, but are just a glorified employee. Of course this attitude and way of doing business will at times burn
bridges with those that are used to being able to take advantage you and telling you what they are willing to pay. Replace those with clients who are willing to see the value in the services that you offer.

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Tile, Hardwood, Laminate, and Resilient
Installation, Sales & Repair - "We do it right the FIRST time"

J&J Home Imp.

I agree but sometimes you also have to be competitive. When I first got started I was charging what i really need to be making but I couldn't get any work because most people are doing it for half. Now I am slowly raising my prices again but it has been a struggle. Carpet doesn't pay crap down here. Hardwood is kinda a tough market too. We have a contractor here that does 3/4 hardwood for .50 sq. ft. and no one can touch that. I have lost 2 contractors to him. I have no clue how he's doing it so cheap either.

PrecisionFloors

I would be willing to bet my next five jobs that that guy is doing something illegal. Whether it be hiring illegals for 40 bucks a day ( I saw it in Florida on alot of tile crews) or taxes or something. I do not see how anyone can be profitable at .50 a ft for hardwood. I also gurantee that guy is not targeting the same market I target. Alot of the people I do business with would actually be scared of hiring someone that cheap, and rightly so.

__________________
Precision Flooring
(772) 237-9900
Tile, Hardwood, Laminate, and Resilient
Installation, Sales & Repair - "We do it right the FIRST time"

Lester's Carpet

I work her in southern california and to get a decent, honest, hardworking installer i pay 3.50$ a foot! You should have sealed the seam but its the retailers responsiblity to check your work. Manufactuers garuntees and warrinties are bologna because they always get of on a technicality.

J&J Home Imp.

Yes you heard right .50 I am doing it for 2.50 and barely making out. The problem is his quality is right up there with the rest of us so its hard to compete. I guess if he is doing something illegal it will bite him one day.

Angus

All carpet seam edges, hot melt or direct glue should be seam sealed. If the pattern is off on the carpet, seam the part that is correct, wait for seam to cool, then stretch one side of carpet to get pattern correct again. All berbers and commercial carpets that have a pattern, usualy need this remedy. If it is a direct glue installation, you can do the same thing. Only you have to stay nail some of it in place. If it is a unitary backed carpet, no dice.

Bud Cline

So if the job had paid more you would have sealed the seam and done the job correctly but since it didn't pay as well as you would like you took a shortcut? Am I understanding this correctly?

boman47k

http://www.taylortools.com/1step.html
I know nothing about carpet seaming other than just the tape and iron method. Thought this might be interesting link.

gideond

We basically just use an industrial strength hot glue gun and a spade tip on it for this, and it dries very quickly so you can go ahead with the taping. We wouldn't have to have this extra adhesive to begin with if the mills weren't skimping on the latex in the backings.

Cook

Although I don't know all the facts surrounding this case may I offer two things.

As an installer It is a numbers game. Make 30 k a year and never have a repair or have to eat a job....or make 150 k + and get hit for a few dollars.

Just my opinion but those that never have a call back either are not answering the phone or not making any money.


Two. Get some Liability insurance.

Ok so maybe 4 things. Get a camera and make out and send daily reports . C.Y.A. ( cover your A)

Cook & Cook INC

Cook

Had to read you post a few times to be sure before saying this.

Double stick....glue , pad, glue, carpet and only sealer at seams!

Bet it is the seaming tape causing a slight rise in the carpet at the seems.
And then the power bar just beating the heck out of it at every pass.

Demal

As a professional installer, it is your responsibility to make sure you do cover your own ass by making sure that everything you do is in compliance with CRI 104/105. All manufacturers look at that as the guide book. In fact, that is the book that we got tested on when I was certified through CFI. I would strongly suggest that you find this book and know it from front to back 9if you continue to be in the business. I cant tell you how much it has helped me.

Here is two links for Commercial and Residential, just to make it easy for you.
http://www.carpet-rug.com/pdf_word_docs/104.pdf
http://www.carpet-rug.com/pdf_word_docs/105.pdf

Good luck man.

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mickeyco

You can guess how he's doing it, I'd suspect illegal aliens doing the work and stolen material, no insurance (or not enough) and probably not paying taxes. Not so long ago some guys at one of the big box stores out this way got busted for selling products at a steep discounts for cash which they were keeping. It's hard to compete when others aren't playing by the rules and with those prices something is not right. Check him out, see if he's playing fairly, license, registered with state or counties, insurance, etc.

On the sealing of seams I don't know much, never heard of it until yesterday when I saw it on Ask This Old House. I know I've had carpet installed where you could notice the seams after a while, now I will make sure the next time I have carpet installed to have the seams sealed.

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Some people climb mountains. I take out the trash. But we both do it for the same reason.

Mike Costello

All seams need to be sealed,hot melt or glue down, loop pile, berber or cut pile.

As far as the pattern I have always gone by the rule that seam tape does not stretch. I always stretch my seams before burning them. It pretty much eliminates the chance of the seam peaking as well.

If the pattern does not line up you can stretch one entire side and then stretch the other in incriments using stay nails to hold it in place. I usually line it up in the middle and work my way out on both ends.

A $7.00 bottle of seam sealer is cheaper than a callback any day.

Demal

Just to let you know, sealing the seams does not make seams invisible. There is no such thing as an invisible seam, and pre stretching doesn't help either. Believe me, I have tried everything. Even burning on boards on crap pad. That does help by the way, but I have not even seen that crap pad in so long. 6" tape only profiles more, but there are still some pieces of carpet that require it.

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Mike Costello

Lol, you dont have to let me know Bud. I've been burning seams for 25 yrs now.

I did print this to show to the sales guys at one of my stores tho,lol.