Pb For Tile Underlayment?

Steve Unkie

I would never use pb for tile underlayment but I just did a job for an old timer who tells me that they used to use pb underlayment all of the time and in some states, still do.

I have done tearouts where they used pb and it was mush, hence the tearout. I suppose, if no moisture gets through the grout then things would be fine [ just like laminate c-tops and pb]. I just had'nt heard this before.

So what guys? Is pb 'old school' or just crapsmanship for tile floors?

I used 1/2'' hardie, btw.

Steve Unkie.

Mike Finley

If by PB you are referring to partical board - come on now, he might as well set the tile with some mud he gets out of a beaver pond and use tooth paste to grout it.

Steve Unkie

That's what I think, Mike. It's just that I'd think the same about tiling over regular sheet rock on shower walls. Some who have been around for a while argue that if it's done right and is watertight, then you'll have no problems.

I'm just wondering if any old timers [ meant respectfully] have heard of, or installed themselves, particle board underlayment for a tile floor.

Steve Unkie.

R&D Tile

NEVER, just humidity in the air will swell it, it should never be anywhere near tile, doesn't matter where in the mix it is either, PERIOD.

All the old timers I know mud everything, can't believe they all didn't fail, if he tiled directly on it, the moisture from the thinset will set it off immediatly.

Gordo

Beaver pond.

__________________
Looks like some pros were here.

Steve Unkie

Thanks guys,

Steve Unkie.

Bud Cline

Building Codes! Has anyone ever heard of Building Codes?

For example: The Tile Council of America specifically forbids the use of particalboard as a ceramic tile underlayment, it's been like that for a long long long long time. OSB is and has been forbidden as well as luan.

Drywall has never been a suitable substrate for a ceramic tile installation in a wet location and now greenboard has been officially outlawed also.

It doesn't matter if a tile job is "done right" or not, tile jobs in and of themselves are never 'watertight', not now not ever.

I don't understand where some of this crap comes from, it's as if no one has the mental capacity to even think that all of this stuff has been thought of by someone else that came before them and some people have even written things down in books. Can no one read? Is it so impossible to imagine that we should all be required to abide by some rules and standards?

Why is it that plumbers and electricians have a bible and no one else does? Tileguys all over the country for example complain about low wages and low prices but most of them don't have the mentality to stick together and follow some sort of discipline.

There are proven methods and there are standards, why not follow them?

Mike Finley

Bud, keep in mind you are mixing your authorities. TCA is not the building code. The IRC doesn't forbid anything but cement products under tile, and the TCA can't forbid anything because they have no authority, they can only establish guidelines and recommendations and practices.

But, I follow the gist of what you are trying to say. Some of the stuff that goes on is down right goofy when as you pointed out there are resource that have established guidelines for us to follow. It shouldn't be a mystery to anybody what to use and what not to use.

Steve Unkie

Bud & Mike,

I agree. I'm still just a pup and know I don't know it all but when someone asks me how something should be done, I try to give them an answer, backed up by code. I understand that codes change and what was the standard 5 years ago may not be acceptable now, but if it's the code now, then that's what I try to go by.

This gentleman has been around a lot longer than me and in the trades, so when he stated that " PB used to be used for tile underlayment all the time and still is in places" I wanted to check it out.

I generally believe in overkill. I don't want callbacks so I prefer to spend a little more time and money on my projects and continue to build a good name.

Thanks for your input.

Steve Unkie.

R&D Tile

As far as I know, PB was never used for ceramic and there isn't anywhere it's used today, find someone else to get your information from, he obviously has no idea what he is talking about.

Bud Cline

Mike I don't care about "mixing authorities". The point I was making is that most all the answers are in a book somewhere if a person just has the desire to look it up. The TCA makes rocommendations, minimal recommendations at that and standards are also published in the American National Standards Institute publications. When I said "building codes" I wasn't necessarily referring to the *Uniform Building Code* I was referring to building codes in general.

All of the recommendations in these books come from years of practice and failures and are all there for a reason. Whether it be safety, or cost effectiveness, or simple practicality, or critical path, or basic need, or general standardization, or whatever. Anyone and everyone that works in the trades has an obligation to his customer, his trade, and himself to be familiar with some of the written standards and at the very least should know where to find the information. For a [so-called] tradesman to continually come across with the statement; "Ive been doing it like this for twenty-five years and never had a complaint" is bull-droppings. These guys are arrogant and lazy and lucky, but mostly liars. We see this all the time on these boards, these guys are simply making-prey of their customers and nothing more.

I have been in the building trades for thirty years and I can promise you that partical board HAS NEVER been considered a suitable substrate for a ceramic tile installation by the tile industry, NEVER. This isn't to say it isn't done but this goes back to the lazy arrogance of the installer.

I will admit, it is much easier to go sit in a bar than it is to go sit in a library.

R&D Tile

I agree, the drinks are on me.

Mike Finley

Pour me a Grey Goose and soda, twist of lime and I'm with ya!