Nails or Staples 3/4" Prefinished Pine - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

dforeid · 01-04-2008, 04:16 PM

Folks,

I've done several searches on this topic and I'm still unsure which way to go. I will be doing my entire house (1,850 SF) in 3/4" prefinished Heart Pine, random length, width is about 5". I got the material from Lumber Liquidators. So, I'm shopping for a nailer (I'll go with a Stanley/Bostitich) and am torn between nails vs. staples. My subfloor is particle board (house built in 1987) over 2X6 T&G car decking. I'd rather not pay $450 and get the wrong unit!

1). Nails vs. staples with 3/4 Pine? Pros-Cons

2). Best online deals for the Bostitch MIIIFN Nailer, or MIIIFS Stapler - where?

Thanks in advance!!!!

PrecisionFloors · 01-04-2008, 04:45 PM

First and foremost the particle board has to go. I would use 3/4 Advantech or BC plywood. Either the stapler or nailer would work fine. The staples hold better but the nails split tongues less so its a toss up really. Staples are the cheaper and easier of the two to find. Find a flooring supply shop to buy staples from or order them online....you will pay out the @$$ for them at the box stores.

I saw some MIIIs on ebay a while back for I wanna say $275, they might have been re-furbs but even so it was still a great deal. Whatever you do make sure you order the BigFoot kit (I believe it comes with the newer guns). It is a great asset on pre-finished. It makes install quicker and the gun a lot more stable.

GoodHouse · 01-04-2008, 07:53 PM

You have to rip up the particle board. I am sure there's at least 1/2" plywood underthat. You should install another layer of 3/8" down once you rip up the particle board by way of screws and glue.
Use staples, hold much better. Rarely spits the tongue (pressure must be set correctly & dont nail in the last inch or so of the board)
Go to harborfreight.com and order their stapler. I think its like 150 brand new with hammer. Works well.

Jerry T · 01-05-2008, 07:14 AM

You sure it is particle baoard and not OSB?

dforeid · 01-05-2008, 02:59 PM

Yes, it is particleboard. "Roseburg Particleboard Interior Type Floor Underlayment" to be exact. Under that is T&G 2X6 cardecking, so the floor is extremely sturdy. This is the case throughout the entire house - all rooms. This material was used quite a bit back in the late '80s and early '90s in our area (Washington State) where builders used the 2X6 cardecking.

Some mentioned earlier that this needs to be taken up and replaced with plywood. I'm just wondering why? In any room where I have taken up the carpet or other flooring, the underlayment is in great shape. I REALLY would rather not have to take that up in the entire house unless there is a real compelling reason that I should do so.

I was just hoping to lay the new 3/4" Pine right over the top of it. And again, curious whether to go with a nail gun or staples.

Thanks for all your input....

dforeid · 01-05-2008, 03:04 PM

Clarification.... the particleboard is just the underlayment directly under the carpet. The subfloor itself is 2X6 cardecking and is extemely strong.

dforeid · 01-05-2008, 03:47 PM

Folks,

Asked another way.... with my actual subfloor being 2"X6" T&G cardecking, would I be better off taking the particleboard underlayment up and just nailing my 3/4" pine directly down to the cardecking?

And again, nails or staples?

GoodHouse · 01-05-2008, 04:48 PM

If the "cardecking" is 2 x 6 and you say it is what it is it should definitely be sufficient enough for the pine wood flooring. No need to add another layer of plywood.

Colhardwoodflrs · 01-05-2008, 05:01 PM

Use staples. As stated above they hold better and if your pressure is set correctly on the compressor you shouldn't have any splitting on the tongue.
And particle board is not an exceptable subfloor. Staples or nails pull out of it very easily. You can lay your flooring over the cardecking, BUT, Is there a crawl space underneath? Is it properly insulated? Is there a vapor/moisture barrier underneath it? On top of it you will have to put a vapor/ moisture barrier, such as 15# felt paper,overlapped. You can do it, just take your time and do it right the first time.

**Teetorbilt** · 01-05-2008, 05:11 PM

Particleboard isn't even good for making a fire IMO.

Mike Costello · 01-06-2008, 08:22 AM

Sure it is....Just dont breath it

thom · 01-06-2008, 10:49 AM

There was a product we called red-x that was a sealed particleboard sub-floor that was used a lot in the 80's. If the sub-floor was installed prior to the walls being framed it won't come out. If it was glued, it won't come out. I would leave it there.

Floordude · 01-06-2008, 12:48 PM

Why isn't this thread being directed to the DIY area?

This is all basic knowledge any professional, would know like the back of his hand. Just saying...

J DoubleD FLoor · 01-13-2008, 11:59 PM

The main reason they are saying get rid of the particle board is not for the sturdiness of the floor ... it's very simple

Your staples or nails will work there way loose in a very ... very short timespan.

ontop of that ... the cardecking TNG that you mention still expands and contracts quite a bit ... and if it's installed like I think it is at an angle ... then even if you used that as your sub ... it will bow, flex, twist, and seperate joints on the pine flooring you lay ontop of it ....

Rip of the PB .... lay atleast 1/2" subflooring. And then install your Pine.

Now for the nailer .... if you are not an installer by trade ... I would not suggest purchasing and expensive nailer that you will only use on one Job

If you have a Harbor Freight nearby .... They sell a Cleat/Stapler ... Can use either ... for about 149.00 and if you put that in one hand and a Bostitch in the other and blindfolded me ... I wouldn't be able to tell you the difference.

My Bostitch needed serviced one time and I still had flooring to install so I purchased one from HF and recently bought another due to the fact the first one performed just as good as my Bostitch ... which died again.

Edger Boy · 01-14-2008, 09:22 AM

Here is what NOFMA has to say about fasteners.
This if from a Virginia Tech Subfloor Test Report.

b) Staple connection strength was, in general, slightly higher than nailed connection strength for the test
fasteners, However, because of installation damage, staple connections are less reliable and consistent
than nailed connections for flooring. Pneumatic stapling resulted in damage to the tongue of flooring

which resulted in negligible strength for some stapled connections

adirondack_will · 05-16-2008, 09:05 PM

I don't generally recommend 3/4" hw over partilce board but have done it twice with good success: 30 years ago I nailed bruce 3,5,7" random prefinished 3/4" oak plank over 2 layers of 3/4" high density particle board with great trepidation. I have been in the house recently and the floor still does not squeak. I have also succesfully nailed 3/4 "red oak over 1 1/4 inch red-x. It was on the 2nd floor. and I set 10d finish nails into every joist (16" oc)). It is doing fine. I would like to hear from anyone who has had real experience confirming or denying mine. BTW 30 years ago some particle boards were recommended subfloors for 3/4" HW.

Adirondack_Will

lawndart · 05-24-2008, 07:00 AM

Will, I have absolutely no experience nailing/stapling hardwoods over particle board, because when every hardwood floor manufacturer specifically states it is not a suitable subfloor I tend to follow their directions to protect my ass.

lawndart · 05-24-2008, 07:13 AM

Staples vs Nails

I don't need a report to tell me that staples hold better, I've ripped up boards nailed both ways. I prefer to staple and rarely split the tounges.

I own quite a few Bostitch nail guns, but suprisingly my favorite one I bought from ebay. It uses both nails, and staples, and has an awesome light weight feel. It also comes with a wood handle Mallet, which feels so much nicer than that fiberglass crap that comes with the bostitch.

RAMSOND NAIL GUN

mack9110000 · 05-24-2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adirondack_will

I don't generally recommend 3/4" hw over partilce board but have done it twice with good success: 30 years ago I nailed bruce 3,5,7" random prefinished 3/4" oak plank over 2 layers of 3/4" high density particle board with great trepidation. I have been in the house recently and the floor still does not squeak. I have also succesfully nailed 3/4 "red oak over 1 1/4 inch red-x. It was on the 2nd floor. and I set 10d finish nails into every joist (16" oc)). It is doing fine. I would like to hear from anyone who has had real experience confirming or denying mine. BTW 30 years ago some particle boards were recommended subfloors for 3/4" HW.

Adirondack_Will

I've been installing hardwood flooring for more than 40 years.I can confirm what you say.No one I know has ever had an issue with nails or cleats loosening off on particle board,cant speak for staples cos I've never seen them used on a ¾" hardwood install.Mind you,I'm in the UK,and we don't experience the extreme weather systems some of you do.I think you will find most wood floor manufacturing companies will agree "privately" but just cover their a$$es to make themselves bomb proof.