Mesh Mortar Alternative?

Home Work Pro · 03-07-2009, 04:41 PM

Hello all,
I've always prepared my floors for ceramic and stone installs by increasing the subfloor thickness to 1.25" and then installing mesh and mortar as my base. This has never failed me and I would rather work with the mesh than durarock or similar cement based board.
I'm wondering if there are other methods that would give me the same strength of base but less build-up?
Thanks

Mellison · 03-07-2009, 05:28 PM

Check this out. I have not used it yet and would be very interested to hear from those who have:http://www.schluter.com/6_1_ditra.aspx

PrecisionFloors · 03-07-2009, 06:09 PM

Ditra would be the best choice imo. You can also use 1/4" cbu, but the Ditra will do eveything the cbu will do and then some, and it's installed height is about an 1/8". If you Kerdi band the seams it is a water proof install as well.

R&D Tile · 03-07-2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Home Work Pro

Hello all,
I've always prepared my floors for ceramic and stone installs by increasing the subfloor thickness to 1.25" and then installing mesh and mortar as my base. This has never failed me and I would rather work with the mesh than durarock or similar cement based board.
I'm wondering if there are other methods that would give me the same strength of base but less build-up?
Thanks

Are you saying you build it up 1.25" with plywood, THEN mesh and mortar, how thick is this mesh & mortar bed, If a scratch coat, no good, that has a HIGH failure rate and shouldn't be used.

Either do a full mud job 1 1/4" of mud over tar paper and wire lath or use Ditra, only 2 ways I'll cover a floor now.

jarvis design · 03-08-2009, 01:49 PM

I did wire lath / scratch coat for probably 10-12 years before switching to Concrete board. I now use mostly Ditra, however, you must make sure the floor is strong enough before installing it. While Schluter says you can install directly over 5/8" subfloor, that subfloor must be solid and conform to L/360 (or stronger if using stone). While every job is different, I will normally install 3/8"/1/2"/5/8" plywood, then ditra.

One other option (depending on height requirements) is to use Ditra XL.
I will admit I haven't used it (yet), but would not hesitate.

The other thing I have learned is that Ditra (like a lot of other products) is only as good as the installation. Their installation handbook gives a lot of good information.

Mike Jarvis

P.S. - its nice to see contractors who want to learn and improve!! -
The old adage of "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" only applies to those who have closed minds!!

Mellison · 03-08-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarvis design

I did wire lath / scratch coat for probably 10-12 years before switching to Concrete board. I now use mostly Ditra, however, you must make sure the floor is strong enough before installing it. While Schluter says you can install directly over 5/8" subfloor, that subfloor must be solid and conform to L/360 (or stronger if using stone). While every job is different, I will normally install 3/8"/1/2"/5/8" plywood, then ditra.

One other option (depending on height requirements) is to use Ditra XL.
I will admit I haven't used it (yet), but would not hesitate.

The other thing I have learned is that Ditra (like a lot of other products) is only as good as the installation. Their installation handbook gives a lot of good information.

Mike Jarvis

P.S. - its nice to see contractors who want to learn and improve!! -
The old adage of "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" only applies to those who have closed minds!!

Jarvis,
are you saying that the deflection of the floor or substrate is still as much of an issue than when not using Ditra. I assumed this product removed the deflection issue completely.

Please advise as I usually use a Hardibacker substrate when not sure so this would save alot of time.
Mike

Floordude · 03-08-2009, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mellison

Jarvis,
are you saying that the deflection of the floor or substrate is still as much of an issue than when not using Ditra. I assumed this product removed the deflection issue completely.

Please advise as I usually use a Hardibacker substrate when not sure so this would save alot of time.
Mike

Is this a trick question????

Deflection ratings must be met before any uncoupling membrane or panel is used.

Mellison · 03-08-2009, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floordude

Is this a trick question????

Deflection ratings must be met before any uncoupling membrane or panel is used.

Not a trick queastion at all Floordude.
One purpose for a uncoupling membrane is to minimize the effects of floor deflection.
I have always installed 1/2 " Hardibacker as an uncoupling agent when a lath and cement base was not applicable.

Has anyone used only the Ditra membrane system directly over a substrate unsuitable for tile installation instead of a build up or cement base? I believe this is what Schluter claims it can be used for.

jarvis design · 03-09-2009, 12:25 AM

The deflection has to meet requirements before installation of ditra or hardi backer or concrete board. Plywood is about the only material that can be installed that will actually strengthen the floor, however, plywood sucks as a base for tile.

Now, that being said, I have been told that if you use ditra XL which is just shy of 1/2" you can install it on 5/8" plywood on 24" centers, which, as far as I know, would not conform to L/360. As I understand it, the thickness of the concrete will add the necessary "strength" required without the addition of any other plywood.

If your substrate is OSB, I feel you definately need to add a layer of plywood and then ditra.

And just to clear up one thing, hardi-backer is really not considered an uncoupling membrane - it is a "direct bond" material. Definately better than plywood!! - never used it myself, always used concrete board.

I can honestly say I have had only a couple of floor issues in the last 20 years - one was a cracked floor joist and the other was floor joist that had been shimmed up and when we did the floor the shims fell out!

I still think concrete board gives a good base (if done properly - set in thinset and screwed like hell!), but I like the extra features and benefits of ditra.

Home Work Pro · 03-09-2009, 06:51 AM

Jarvis, I've read all the literature on the ditra and from what their saying, I should be able to install it over 5/8 t+g subfloor. The cost is not the issue so much as the height. The kitchen I will be starting to demo next week currently has ceramic and the adjacent family room will get new carpet. The subfloor is 3/4 ply over 16oc 2x10, but I'm not sure if the plywood is t+g. If it is, the ditra should work by itself without the build up problem. If the ply isn't t+g then will I need to build up the subfloor with 1/2" ply and then install the ditra?
I normally would just shim the carpet , but there is another transition back to a marble entry at the corner by the kitchen

R&D Tile · 03-09-2009, 08:46 AM

You are all missing the real issue here, Plywood only strengthens the floor between the joists, it does nothing as far as meeting the L/360 for ceramic and L/720 for stone.

The joist system is what tells you whether the flex in the floor meets specs.

One layer of plywood over any spaced joists is risky, don't care what they say, if you want a good floor to tile and the joists meet specs, 1/2" or better ply over 3/4 or 5/8" is the way to go, THEN a membrane or a CBU.

Unless you are doing a full mud job over a single layer floor, no scratch coats.

I would never install tile over a single wood layer floor on 24" joist spacing.

Ditra and CBUs add no strength to a subfloor, they are only there as a backer for tile or stone.

jarvis design · 03-09-2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R&D Tile

You are all missing the real issue here, Plywood only strengthens the floor between the joists, it does nothing as far as meeting the L/360 for ceramic and L/720 for stone.

The joist system is what tells you whether the flex in the floor meets specs.

One layer of plywood over any spaced joists is risky, don't care what they say, if you want a good floor to tile and the joists meet specs, 1/2" or better ply over 3/4 or 5/8" is the way to go, THEN a membrane or a CBU.

Unless you are doing a full mud job over a single layer floor, no scratch coats.

I would never install tile over a single wood layer floor on 24" joist spacing.

Ditra and CBUs add no strength to a subfloor, they are only there as a backer for tile or stone.

I agree with most of what you said, although, I am questioning the additional layer of plywood not adding strength.

Heres the dilemma, houses are (at least here in Canada) built with an engineered framing structure that "should" create a floor that conforms to L/360 deflection. That being said, I am sure you have been in houses new and old that were on both ends of the spectrum, some floors are solid, others you can feel the "bounce" when you walk across.

I have seen so many failed installations, the overwhelming majority of which were installed on 2 layers of plywood. Our "code" up here for plywood is 2 layers of 5/8". I wouldn't dream of tiling on that!

What really bothers me are the installers that Really don't have a clue, installing 1/4" mahogany over an existing vinyl floor, using 3/8" plywood over the sub-floor, all while using the cheapest thinsets and grouts available.

PrecisionFloors · 03-09-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mellison

Jarvis,
are you saying that the deflection of the floor or substrate is still as much of an issue than when not using Ditra. I assumed this product removed the deflection issue completely.

Please advise as I usually use a Hardibacker substrate when not sure so this would save alot of time.
Mike

You assumed incorrectly. Get yerself over to Schluter's site and do some diggin. After that order you a TCNA handbook. Thirdly go dig around over at JohnBridge.com
All the info is out there and easily acessable.

Then go have a beer

R&D Tile · 03-09-2009, 03:04 PM

Quote:

I agree with most of what you said, although, I am questioning the additional layer of plywood not adding strength.

You're still not getting it.

I said the plywood only adds strength to the flex BETWEEN the joists, adding plywood will not add strength to the joist system, if the joists don't meet L/360 for ceramic, plywood won't solve this, capeesh?

You will have to sister the joists or add a cross beam to cut the unsupported span down to get the flex out if needed.

Quote:

I have seen so many failed installations, the overwhelming majority of which were installed on 2 layers of plywood. Our "code" up here for plywood is 2 layers of 5/8". I wouldn't dream of tiling on that!

I would with a membrane or CBU over that and joists being fine, that shouldn't be an issue.

Mellison · 03-09-2009, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrecisionFloors

You assumed incorrectly. Get yerself over to Schluter's site and do some diggin. After that order you a TCNA handbook. Thirdly go dig around over at JohnBridge.com
All the info is out there and easily acessable.

Then go have a beer

Thank you precision,
I was finally able to download the Ditra handbook.
And they make it quite clear.
Thanks again.

PrecisionFloors · 03-09-2009, 10:52 PM

No sweat, 'tis what we're here for right? Pay it forward ya know.

The Ditra handbook is great, I keep a copy on the dash of the truck for reference....I've used it more than I thought I would.

03-07-2009, 04:41 PM	#1
Home Work Pro View Profile Home Work Pro Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (78) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: remodeling Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: north east ohio Posts: 78	Mesh Mortar Alternative? Hello all, I've always prepared my floors for ceramic and stone installs by increasing the subfloor thickness to 1.25" and then installing mesh and mortar as my base. This has never failed me and I would rather work with the mesh than durarock or similar cement based board. I'm wondering if there are other methods that would give me the same strength of base but less build-up? Thanks

03-07-2009, 05:28 PM	#2
Mellison View Profile Mellison Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,158) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Home Improvement General Contractor Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: NYC Posts: 1,158	Re: Mesh Mortar Alternative? Check this out. I have not used it yet and would be very interested to hear from those who have:http://www.schluter.com/6_1_ditra.aspx __________________ "Enjoy Every Sandwich" Warren Zevon

03-07-2009, 06:09 PM	#3
PrecisionFloors View Profile PrecisionFloors "da Whale don't hesitate" Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,341) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (2) View All Activity "da Whale don't hesitate" Trade: Hard Surface Flooring Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 2,341	Re: Mesh Mortar Alternative? Ditra would be the best choice imo. You can also use 1/4" cbu, but the Ditra will do eveything the cbu will do and then some, and it's installed height is about an 1/8". If you Kerdi band the seams it is a water proof install as well. __________________ Precision Flooring (772) 237-9900 Tile, Hardwood, Laminate, and Resilient Installation, Sales & Repair - "We do it right the FIRST time"

03-08-2009, 01:49 PM	#5
jarvis design View Profile jarvis design bathroom guru Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,146) Photos (9) Reviews (5) Projects (4) Toolbox (5) View All Activity bathroom guru Trade: Bathroom Design Build Contractor Join Date: May 2008 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,146	Re: Mesh Mortar Alternative? I did wire lath / scratch coat for probably 10-12 years before switching to Concrete board. I now use mostly Ditra, however, you must make sure the floor is strong enough before installing it. While Schluter says you can install directly over 5/8" subfloor, that subfloor must be solid and conform to L/360 (or stronger if using stone). While every job is different, I will normally install 3/8"/1/2"/5/8" plywood, then ditra. One other option (depending on height requirements) is to use Ditra XL. I will admit I haven't used it (yet), but would not hesitate. The other thing I have learned is that Ditra (like a lot of other products) is only as good as the installation. Their installation handbook gives a lot of good information. Mike Jarvis P.S. - its nice to see contractors who want to learn and improve!! - The old adage of "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" only applies to those who have closed minds!! __________________ Bathrooms Built for Life. www.JarvisDesignBuild.com 519-495-4062

03-09-2009, 12:25 AM	#9
jarvis design View Profile jarvis design bathroom guru Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,146) Photos (9) Reviews (5) Projects (4) Toolbox (5) View All Activity bathroom guru Trade: Bathroom Design Build Contractor Join Date: May 2008 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,146	Re: Mesh Mortar Alternative? The deflection has to meet requirements before installation of ditra or hardi backer or concrete board. Plywood is about the only material that can be installed that will actually strengthen the floor, however, plywood sucks as a base for tile. Now, that being said, I have been told that if you use ditra XL which is just shy of 1/2" you can install it on 5/8" plywood on 24" centers, which, as far as I know, would not conform to L/360. As I understand it, the thickness of the concrete will add the necessary "strength" required without the addition of any other plywood. If your substrate is OSB, I feel you definately need to add a layer of plywood and then ditra. And just to clear up one thing, hardi-backer is really not considered an uncoupling membrane - it is a "direct bond" material. Definately better than plywood!! - never used it myself, always used concrete board. I can honestly say I have had only a couple of floor issues in the last 20 years - one was a cracked floor joist and the other was floor joist that had been shimmed up and when we did the floor the shims fell out! I still think concrete board gives a good base (if done properly - set in thinset and screwed like hell!), but I like the extra features and benefits of ditra. __________________ Bathrooms Built for Life. www.JarvisDesignBuild.com 519-495-4062

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03-09-2009, 06:51 AM	#10
Home Work Pro View Profile Home Work Pro Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (78) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: remodeling Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: north east ohio Posts: 78	Re: Mesh Mortar Alternative? Jarvis, I've read all the literature on the ditra and from what their saying, I should be able to install it over 5/8 t+g subfloor. The cost is not the issue so much as the height. The kitchen I will be starting to demo next week currently has ceramic and the adjacent family room will get new carpet. The subfloor is 3/4 ply over 16oc 2x10, but I'm not sure if the plywood is t+g. If it is, the ditra should work by itself without the build up problem. If the ply isn't t+g then will I need to build up the subfloor with 1/2" ply and then install the ditra? I normally would just shim the carpet , but there is another transition back to a marble entry at the corner by the kitchen

03-09-2009, 08:46 AM	#11
R&D Tile View Profile R&D Tile Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (433) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Tile installations Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Long Island N.Y. Posts: 433	Re: Mesh Mortar Alternative? You are all missing the real issue here, Plywood only strengthens the floor between the joists, it does nothing as far as meeting the L/360 for ceramic and L/720 for stone. The joist system is what tells you whether the flex in the floor meets specs. One layer of plywood over any spaced joists is risky, don't care what they say, if you want a good floor to tile and the joists meet specs, 1/2" or better ply over 3/4 or 5/8" is the way to go, THEN a membrane or a CBU. Unless you are doing a full mud job over a single layer floor, no scratch coats. I would never install tile over a single wood layer floor on 24" joist spacing. Ditra and CBUs add no strength to a subfloor, they are only there as a backer for tile or stone.

03-09-2009, 10:52 PM	#16
PrecisionFloors View Profile PrecisionFloors "da Whale don't hesitate" Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,341) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (2) View All Activity "da Whale don't hesitate" Trade: Hard Surface Flooring Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 2,341	Re: Mesh Mortar Alternative? No sweat, 'tis what we're here for right? Pay it forward ya know. The Ditra handbook is great, I keep a copy on the dash of the truck for reference....I've used it more than I thought I would. __________________ Precision Flooring (772) 237-9900 Tile, Hardwood, Laminate, and Resilient Installation, Sales & Repair - "We do it right the FIRST time"

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