Mannington Sobella - Anyone Share The Same Problems?

FlooringChick

Mannington Sobella Supreme is a wonderful hit with pattern, style and of course it's cushion.

When it was first introduced, instructions were to let the pressure-sensitive adhesive 'flash-off' first, and of course it could be sold as a full-spread OR loose lay method, although full-spread was recommended in kitchen areas.

Now, after we and hundreds of other retailers experiencing problems with bubbles, we were then told by the people in the know (Mannington) at a special Sobella clinic the installation method has changed. It should always be full-spread and to install WET versus the orginal flash-off method.

Also, it's recommended leaving small expansion gaps to avoid "Pinch points" - apparently that is a cause of all this bubbling and the pros from Mannington acknowledge it has been an ongoing problem.

So, today I was told by the head honches, that in a huge new house I'm dealing with (over 200 SY of Sobella), that the kitchen cabinets must NOT sit on this floor. The customer will also have a large island topped with Quartz, so this definitely would have to be cut around. This is not acceptable to my clients and I can't say I blame them. With a brand new home, I couldn't imagine cutting around the island or adjusting the cabinets to accomodate this floor.

I really love this product, but it's getting harder and harder to keep liking it. Has anyone else Sobella issues to share?

PrecisionFloors

IF the product is full-spread I don't see the worry with top setting the cabinets. I have pulled and re-set many islands after full spreading Flexi-Tec, Tarkett Fiber Floor, and IVC floors (essentially the same products). I think they are getting their instructions between full-spread and floating mixed up. I wish they never would have said it could be floated in the first damned place......actually is ignorant if you know anything about resilient floors and their intended usage.

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FlooringChick

PF Guy:

I got a FIRM no from the Branch Manager of the distributor as well as calling Mannington's top gun technical guy about putting kitchen cabinets on the full-spread glued Sobella. They will no way guarantee a problem free situation. So I guess I lose a 200 SY Sobella order.

2 or 3 top notch installers here in town, whom also attended the Sobella seminar and who have carved out excellent reputations for continuing education and technique all had problems with this floor bubbling several days after installation. The main reason for this problem was the release of the product with different guidance then than now ie: flashing off, but now WET...

The product cannot be installed 'tight' and I was told that many everyday things can cause "pinch points", which in turn cause problems, even with full spread adhesive (we will NEVER loose lay it here after the pros at the seminar mentioned it's NOT a good idea in most normal situations)

I am so frustrated that customers have to bear the brunt of a problem, because the finer points of product and adhesives are not yet fine tuned.

Floordude

Mis-specified product for the intended installation.

The guy that sold the flooring did not know the product well enough to communicate it's requirements. Those requirements have been there since the product was brought to the market. Nothing new, or change.

All you speak, is old news. It is guys installing that flooring, just like they did flooring sheet flooring 5 years ago. Things change, and installers don't get the education they need.

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FlooringChick

But Floordude:

Here is the thing: The manufacturer is hell-bent on getting the product out and it comes with installation guidelines. They DO read them.

Then we have problems.

Then they set up an installation clinic with revisions to how you should put this in. (Erase the old guidelines)

Now, I am talking about top-notch guys who WANT to learn and WANT to change. I know some of the installers you refer to - the ones who don't embrace change or any new techniques. The guys I have been dealing with only want a top job done and are still shaking their heads and have followed every single recommendation. I leave the non-learners at the door.

I just didn't want you to think that these guys are hackers. They have been accomodating new techinques for ages and do really embrace them and are happy to go to clinics and learn.

I just don't understand the logic here.

FC

Floordude

Trapping air, is the main cause of bubbles, then you have off gassing, because even though they say get into it wet, there is still a slight open time to off gas. I squeegee, the sheet from the middle out, with a wonder board, before I roll the floor and don't have problems.

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Mike Costello

I know Tarkette started off using pressure sensitive and now recommends the prduct be full spread with standard felt back vinyl adhesive.

I have had great luck with te full spread as well as perimeter gluing three sides of the floor

FlooringChick

Thanks Mike...

Definitely worth a try to use a premium adhesive instead of pressure sensitive. I believe another retailer in this City has tried that, as they were having problems as well. It seems to be doing OK, although they are using a different flooring mfg. glue, which I think is a tad risky due to warranty purposes.

I' m hoping for a smaller job to try this out with the Mannington goods, before I get to the 200 plus SY job coming up.

Appreciate that input as well.

gideond

I sell a lot of IVC products and some Tarkett. Tarkett is still sending me pressure sensitive glues. Regardless, we see the bubbles in just about every job we do with IVC. And by the next day they are gone. The floor tightens itself up overnight. That's not saying that huge bubbles will just disappear.

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ClassicCarpets

I talked with the national installer with IVC and the tell us only use 5080 parabond


Then they took it off the list because its to aggressive.

Parabond changed the chemicle base and then IVC put it back on the list.


As far as flashing is concerned, I had an installer install flextec and didnt let it flash completly and had great sucess with it, no bubbles.

We have installed it since then, same method and success all the way.


Sobella and IVC claims that the goods doesnt contract nor Expand .. any comments on that?

ClassicCarpets

I dont know if it would be a good Idea to use Premium adhesive over Pressure Sensitive.

Down the road if repairs need to made, how are you going to detach-reattach?

Mike Costello

Premium adhesive instead of pressure sensitive, To be honest I dont worry about easy removal of vinyls I install. I want them to stay down.

PrecisionFloors

Yeah....

Bull****

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gideond

It's got fiberglass in it. Of course it expands and contracts. What would be the point in leaving a gap around the edge if it didn't expand?

We use Apac 610 on just about all IVC jobs. We've used some Parabond 5080 as well with no issues. I've been told by my sales rep that the key it to use a 1/4" foam roller pad to put the glue down very thin. Supposedly they claim that too much adhesive causes off-gassing that can't get through the matial and thus creates bubbles. Of course their instructions spec a 3/8" nap paint roller so is the rep right or the instructions?

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ClassicCarpets

Right ...

Or ... a worn out trowel will work.

I've had an issue with an installer using a 1/16'' notch .. to much glue.

ClassicCarpets

Thats what I say.

Mike Costello

I have done about 1000 yds of both Armstrongs "loose lay" and Tarkettes fiber floor as well as some 13 foot wide stuff one of my retailers carries.

I used Henrys 356 with it and squeegeed like was mentioned. So far no callbacks.

I kind of treat it as a non porous install with the understanding that the small gas bubbles will go away .

When I use to skim existing vinyl with Armsrong embossing leveler, felt backed goods would have about a dozen small gas bubbles left after a thorough rolling. They went away.

The customer is usually not a believer till the next day.

I let the adhesive flash just long enough to be able to still work bubbles out and get good transfer.

rusty baker

Don't know if IVC expands and contracts or not. But your walls expand and contract. All wood surfaces do.

ClassicCarpets

I believe everything expands and contracts, at least to a certian point.

Floorwizard

IVC and all Glass back will expand and contract. Sometimes it is the metal transitions that can pinch as well if used. There is a specific way of installing metal flatbar.

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