Liability For Problems Outside The Scope Of Floor

Grainywood

I had an employee install a small 40 foot bathroom with toilet and petal sink. When the toilet was removed, we found there was no flang to reattach the toilet. Apparently the rotorooter guys had been in there several years ago according to her, removed the toilet and reinstalled it without a flang, bolting it right to the subfloor instead. I guess they didn't want to tell her she needed more services, gee, I wonder why. The new cork floor raised the bathroom floor and of course the bolt was too short and I was worried about a leak happening if we did it that way. I could have done it but I wasn't there at the jobsite so I told her she needed a plumber. Then it comes out that her sink faucet has these cheap water leads that need to be replaced so that it will reconnect to the wall.

The next thing I know the homeowner tells me it's my responsiblity that the toilet can't be reinstalled, that the pedestal sink faucets have too short of a line to reconnect, because I didn't warn her on the estimate. She demanded that we pay for the plumbing problem. Not only that but apparently the sink wasn't installed correctly when the house was built and now because the sink is off the wall she wanted me to pay to have it done correctly which meant the tearout of her drywall. Then the plumber guy says her pipe leading out of the floor for the toilet is old and needs to be replaced which she also wanted me to pay for. Can we say "freeloader?" and we're not talking poor people here. We're talking about one of the richest areas of town, an old house with sub code construction that is causing problems and she wants a flooring contractor to fix it for free. Should I fix her roof too?

I ended up forking over 720 bucks to the plumber for the toilet and new sink lines just to get her out of my hair. I reinstalled the sink myself as is into the wall telling her it came that way, so I'm putting it back that way.

How do you deal with issues that come up that are outside your trade? I've had to deal with electrical issues, gas lines, plumbing. Most customers understand they are responsible for such issues once I point them out, but once in a while you get these rich jerks who think they can hold you responsible for all their infrastructure problems. By the way, my contract is clear. It has a disclaimer about work outside the scope of my profession. And please, I'm not an idiot, I know how to R&R a toilet and sink. I was on another job and my employee couldn't do it with the hardware that was existing.

Final conclusion: She actually called me a liar about the exclusion of other trade services being in my contract. She didn't want to read it and she wouldn't bring it to me to show her. Then as I was leaving she yelled out that there had better be no leaks unless she was going to be calling again. Nasty. I kept my composure.

And I just wanted to add, that during my little repair, she started telling me about how she had screwed over her general contractor for a free refinishing of her floor because she blamed him for a leak. Then she had those floor refinishers out three times to resand her floor because she wasn't happy with their work.

Frankly, if it wasn't this, she would have tried to pin something else on me. Bottom line is, it was a courtesy to even take such a small job. Aside from not taking the job, I should have been there to do it myself. I could have pushed the contract clause and gone to court but like most contractors, I'm busy and it was a small job.

Hope that clarifies for all those who think I didn't cover my bases with the contract, didn't know how to do basic plumbing and those who have confused scope of work with liability. You know what I'm saying. If it isn't in the contract, it isn't covered. We're not talking damaging her property, we're talking upgrading her subcode bathroom which is outside the scope of work.

TonyD

A properly written contract is the key. If it's not in the contract to repair plumbing then it's as simple as that. "...will remove and replace fixtures with existing hardware regardless of condition..."

__________________
"...You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong..."
Abraham Lincoln

Grainywood

My contract clause actually says if there are other professional services needed, its the Owner's responsibility.

But thanks. I'm going to include your line and highlight it.

Donedat

I tell the customers straight out that I'm a floor guy and am not insured for anything else, so call a plumber, an electricial, or a carpenter if need be, but I'm just the floor guy. That usually works and I usually have a list of people I can refer them to to get the job done right.

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I admit...I don't know everything...but don't tell my kids I told you.

Double-A

I think a judge would tell you that you can cut that part out of your contract as soon as you removed the toilet or the sink. If you did the fixture removal then you just violated the terms of your own contract. You can't have it both ways. You can't say we'll do it, but you need to get a plumber to do it.

I can see as a flooring contractor how this would be a tough problem to deal with on bathrooms. I used to run service calls as a plumber and I'd get requested by a flooring contractor on a regular basis to do the fixture pulls and resets on his jobs. He never touched the plumbing. If there was a problem with the flange, it was brought to the attention of the homeowner right away with both of us there. He would explain the problem, I'd explain the fix, he'd ask if they wanted me to make the repair or get their own plumber to do it.

Educating the homeowner is sometimes a hard job.

BTW, if you haven't reset the commode, and the pipe it was sitting on is lead, look under the commode. I'm willing to bet the brass flange was never soldered to the lead or the lead tore and the flange is stuck to the base of the WC in the wax.

As a general contracting firm, we don't run into this much. We don't do electrical or HVAC, but pretty much everything else we can do in house.

__________________
"My clients’ wishes are the center of my attention." -- David Guido, a contractor in Woodstock, N.Y.
New York Times, July 20, 2006

Donedat

Yeah, check your insurance coverage. Mine only covers flooring (not tile). I am definitely not covered for plumbing or anything involving water. I'm guessing you're not either.

__________________
I admit...I don't know everything...but don't tell my kids I told you.

mdshunk

I think I'd get your plumber on the horn right now and get him to reset that toilet, and you pay for it. Call his fee the "cost of education" for you. Tuition is expensive. Some people go to college. Some people piece meal their education one plumber or electrician bill at a time. There's no reason to saddle your customer with the bill for something you were too proud to have subbed out. You may change your contract or your business practices in the future, but for now - you owe these folks a working crapper.

EDIT... I see (now that I re-read that you did pay a plumber). Good job. That's what you should have done. I don't see it as "getting her out of your hair". I see it as doing the right thing, since your contract was so... nonexistant? with respect to the plumbing issue.

Mike Finley

It's really easy, try adding something like this to your contracts...

Extra Costs & Change orders
Additional work requested not described in attached scope of work will be an extra charge. Additional work to be approved by Customer prior to commencing, by signature, on a Change Order Form. Payment for work listed on change orders is due at completion of that work and not at end of project.

Hidden Defects
In the event there are any conditions not apparent or disclosed which require additional work and/or material, this work will be completed by the process of above extra costs/change orders.

Hope that helps.

Grainywood

No, our plumber said there was no flange on this pipe when we got to it. I also looked in the debris for it. The rotorouter guys probably tore it off five years ago when they did a service call on the pipe and then reinstalled it without a flange.

Fact is I've done probably hundreds of toilets over the years. And you can't know what the situation is until you start taking things apart. It's not rocket science that everytime you come across a bathroom you should warn them to get a plumber.

These are concealed conditions.
MIssing hardware and the added labor should have been a Change Order because it is outside the scope of what the contract covered. She didn't want to hear it.

Liability should come into play only when you actually cause damage to something. There was no damage done by my installer. She had substandard hardware to accommodate her new homeimprovement which she wanted me to pay for.

Over the course of the conversation I found out that she had screwed several contractors over the last few years, including getting a general to refinish her floor for free, then making those floor refinishers do it three times because she wasn't satisfied. She made my installer tear out the bathroom floor twice because she didn't like a small block of color in one of the cork boards.

Bottom line is I should have been on the jobsite from the start, but it isn't always easy to tell a psycho from the rest.

Grainywood

Extra Costs & Change orders
Additional work requested not described in attached scope of work will be an extra charge. Additional work to be approved by Customer prior to commencing, by signature, on a Change Order Form. Payment for work listed on change orders is due at completion of that work and not at end of project.

Hidden Defects
In the event there are any conditions not apparent or disclosed which require additional work and/or material, this work will be completed by the process of above extra costs/change orders.

Hope that helps.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I'll add this.

Grainywood

Oh common. It wasn't intricate plumbing work we're talking about here. And it isn't pride that made me not sub it out. It's the R&R of a toilet and sink which most flooring contractors do. I do it all the time. I just wasn't on this particular job to educate my client on her responsibilities until it was too late.

Let's face it, plumbers and electricians are pretty bent out of shape that they are cut out of these jobs. Whenever I've hired one, they've come up with some interesting stories about what exactly needs to be done so that they can jack up the price. Plumbers and electricians, unlike flooring contractors (IMO) are notorious for not explaining what exactly was done for the price. An electrician charged one of my homeowners $375 to change a fuse so that I could sand her floor.

And my contract is very clear, if there are other non flooring issues that are discovered (not created by us, but exist in their house) that require other professional services, the client is responsible for their fix. How much simpler can it get? In fact when I told her to look at the contract for the clause she refused and said I was lying. I can't list every possible trade that is excluded from my contract by name. That should be pretty self evident by the fact that I'm a flooring contractor.

If it isn't written in the contract, it isn't part of the scope of the work. "Scope of work" wouldn't mean much if anytime something came up, you were responsible for it without being able to add a Change Order. Most customers understand the concept of a Change Order. This customer was looking to get a deal. She'd screwed other contractors over before apparently and if it wasn't this, I'll bet it would have been something else.

Double-A

Grainy, I'm glad you got out from under that job and I hope you never hear from that woman again.

Your profile doesn't say what state you're in, but plumbing without a licence in Arkansas can get you min 500 dollar fine or up to 5,000 dollar fine and 6 months in county jail for the first offense.

As I said before, this has to really be a tough call for flooring contractors when it comes to bathrooms. The plumbing police are not in everyone's bathroom, but if the homeowner complained to everyone she could think of, including the licensing board for plumbers, this could turn into a real mess quick.


I have no idea how our local flooring contractors handle this type of situation, but I have my suspicions... "Come on, baby! Daddy needs a new pair of shoes!"

Arkansas' latest offenders. Scroll down to the bottom of page 2.

__________________
"My clients’ wishes are the center of my attention." -- David Guido, a contractor in Woodstock, N.Y.
New York Times, July 20, 2006

Floorwizard

I like Mike's quite a bit.
I use:

"Additional charges can incur due to UNFORSEEN circumstances that arise during installation"

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"in 20 years you will regret more what you did not do than what you did"

Grainywood

The general liability insurance doesn't cover for flooring. It's for liability to damages like if while you're working on a floor, you burn down the house or cause a water leak, damage something.

So if I were to have caused damage to plumbing while removing the toilet or sink, my insurance would cover such damage. So yes, if you have general liability, you should be covered for for plumbing.

It's strange but there are no coverages for the actual flooring itself (in CA), except by individual bonds on a job of course but I think those have more to do with completion and payment of materials, not if you mess it up. That usually ends up in arbitration and the contractor pays for it himself, not his insurance company.