Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!

 
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Old 02-25-2007, 06:47 AM   #1
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Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


If anyone could help with this it would be real appreciative.
Went and met a lady about doing a bathroom remodel in a 4300sqft home
in the high end of town. The bathroom entails doing ceramic tile on the
floor, 44" up on all the walls as well as doing a tile wall surround in the
shower all the way to the ceiling.

This will be our first experience with tile. As far as the walls go can we
put the mortar directly onto water resistant sheetrock around the
shower and walls? Or do we need to put something like hardibacker
everywhere there is going to be tile?


We have pretty much figured out what tools to get as far as, tile saw, tile nippers, some type of beating block and rubber mallet, notched trowel, and grout float.

We install vinyl flooring and laminates and things of that nature but, this is the first time we have had to option of doing tile.
They want this to stand out so it can be a selling point of the house.
We havent told people that we cant do things but we dont exactly
tell them that we have. But we get alot of experience doing it and
normally get repeat jobs and referrals off of it. Am willing to eat
some money to learn how to do it so maybe we can work in the high
end of town where people dont really complain about our prices they
say when can you start.

We have a good size portfolio of bathrooms and whole houses that
have been remodeled just none include tile. If there is a book or
something you recommend just let me know. Supposed to give the
lady an estimate on labor Tomorrow and start tearing out the
bathroom on friday.

If there are any tips on how you would do things please let me
know. Any tools you might recommend as well. We have tried to
stay true to our slogan: Turnkey Construction - Key to All Your Construction Needs.

We do everything from inside out and all interior rough framig to finish
trim to painting. We have also gotten referalls by doing everything
besides electrical and plumbing because people dont want 10
different companys coming through there home. If you could help
on the tile could really use the advice!!!
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Old 02-25-2007, 05:42 PM   #2
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


Our guys are using a product called Kirdy, it is an orange fabric that is thinset into place. The tiles are then thinset to the fabric. They do this in wet areas only, the balance of the walls they install directly to the sheet rock. They are not using mastic, they are using thinset mortar.

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Old 02-25-2007, 06:06 PM   #3
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


wodmagman-I think you mean Kerdi?

turnkey-

check out the John Bridge Ceramic Tile Forum... you'll get more accurate information than you'll know what to do with.

a) You're right, NEVER use mastic.

b) Never tile directly to shrock or greenboard in a wet area.. it always rots.

Oh yeah, the website has good books available... Tile your world, and The Kerdi shower.

Most of the pro's seem to prefer the Kerdi system, but I like cbu for tub surrounds.

Good luck.

Last edited by Forry; 02-25-2007 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 02-25-2007, 06:13 PM   #4
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


http://www.schluter.com/english/arti...owersystem.htm
This link shows a shower pan that is done. Your tile wholesaler will know of the product. It is not cheap so be prepared to up sell this if you have not cost it in.
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Old 02-25-2007, 06:18 PM   #5
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


Wow, where do I start? First off, I believe you have bitten off more than you can chew if you have never installed tile before and are doing this for money. Is a license required for the tile trade in your area. If so do you have it and the required insurance? The insurance will not cover your mistakes. I have never witnessed an insurance co. pay a claim for bad workmanship.
Every job requires different materials and procedures. Not just "We have pretty much figured out what tools to get as far as, tile saw, tile nippers, some type of beating block and rubber mallet, notched trowel, and grout float."
A halfway decent wet saw will run you $400 to $500.00, and thats saying it might be big enough to handle the larger format tiles. This brings me to the question of what tiles are being used, is it tile or stone, if stone is it water sensitive, size, pattern, is there going to be glass used also? All of these variables will determine the tools needed to perform a job that will last for the life of the house. Now you have to be concerned with the substrate to which you intend to apply the tiles to . Are these areas going to be affected by moisture, and if so will they be required to hold water for indefinite periods of time? All this water containment cannot affect the rest of the house. Which thinset will be compatible with the substrate, tile and application. There is a very good and valid reason why the manufacturers of thinsets make 10 to 20 different types of products.
I'm saying all this in hopes of having you step back and take a very long hard look at what you are getting yourself into. Remember, there is a very hefty liability attached to building a wet area in a home. If it leaks you are liable for the damages you have incurred on them, including possible mold damage. This also applies to the other areas as well.
If you are serious about entering the tile trade, then I strongly suggest you get some form of training, either by attending a CTEF school or working for a experienced and reputable contractor. I've been doing this for 23 yrs and still learn new stuff every time I do a installation.
Start with ordering a TCNA installation handbook along with the ANSI specs. The handbook will get you started, it shows the many versions of installations that are applicable to a successful and lasting installation.
I'm saying this because I have had seen these things happen all too often when I'm called to inspect a faulty installation by the plaintiff in a lawsuit.
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Last edited by JJC; 02-25-2007 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 02-25-2007, 06:21 PM   #6
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


JJC telling it like it is.........Know your product hire the right people.
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Old 02-25-2007, 07:56 PM   #7
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


jjc gave you good advice, the ctef schools are a good place to strart. First time tiling a whole shower and building a proper shower pan is not easy especially in a customers house! justin
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Old 02-25-2007, 08:03 PM   #8
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


Outstanding post JJC Great call on the wet area explanation, the average handy person just doesn't think about that kind of stuff. It amazes me how many people think tile is waterproof.

I see the same thing going on in the other hard surface flooring trades as well.
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Old 02-25-2007, 08:45 PM   #9
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


Well didnt mean to sound stupid sorry. The reason I mentioned the greenboard is because we were told by someone else that was how they done it.
Since I posted I read a post that was although someone else has done it doesnt mean that it is good advice. I understand about using cbu's didnt know if there needed to be sheetrock on the walls before hand. I didnt think it was a good Idea in the first place when I was told. I do a lot of tile demo and have seen a lot of sheetrock, plywood, and mouldings ruined.
I understand the liability in building a wet area in a home. Im not building a full shower pan and all just putting up wall surround around a tub. We are using all ceramic tile. My main concern was before I got into it that if I attach cbu's directly to the studs does that also replace gypsum board for the firebarrier.
Floor tiles I dont think I will have a problem with it is the shower surrounds that I wanted to make sure I attached them to the appropriate substrait. We do have a wet saw which is capable of cutting 10in tiles. which we are using on the floor. The tub surrounds will be with 6x6 with a border of 2x2. What backer do you guys recommend the most?
I would feel safer using cbu's everywhere versus going with what someone said about attaching them to greenboard. I understand I might not have all the tools to do all the fancy cutting but am willing to invest in the tools and the training to learn.
Not trying to cut anyone out of business but alot of the tile work from tile guys I have met I would not consider hiring them to come into a house that I am remodeling. But in the particular neighborhood if something isnt right a realtor will point it out.
If I put down the tile and a week later it comes up, I warranty my work. Even if it is my first time setting tile. I really appreciate the feedback and Im sorry to make anyone mad but just trying to expand my businesses ability to do what our customers want rather than put work in someone elses hands that may not stand behind it.
We have had to deal with alot of it lately for other customers who cant get someone to come back out on certain jobs. Would hardibacker be fine to go with for our first time?

Last edited by TurnkeyConst; 02-25-2007 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:16 PM   #10
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


Turnkey-

Hardi is fine, just be sure you have a proper moisture barrier, and yes, it's an approved fire block. Don't let these guys scare you. Lot's of "tile guys" don't know how to properly install a tub surround, so if you're willing to do the research, you're a step ahead of them.

Please do visit John Bridge's site, they have all the info you need, and will be willing to help you get it right. There's tons to know, and it's all there.
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Old 02-26-2007, 05:23 PM   #11
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


Quote:
They want this to stand out so it can be a selling point of the house.
First time eh, good luck.
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:13 AM   #12
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnkeyConst View Post
If anyone could help with this it would be real appreciative.
Went and met a lady about doing a bathroom remodel in a 4300sqft home
in the high end of town. The bathroom entails doing ceramic tile on the
floor, 44" up on all the walls as well as doing a tile wall surround in the
shower all the way to the ceiling.

This will be our first experience with tile. As far as the walls go can we
put the mortar directly onto water resistant sheetrock around the
shower and walls? Or do we need to put something like hardibacker
everywhere there is going to be tile?


We have pretty much figured out what tools to get as far as, tile saw, tile nippers, some type of beating block and rubber mallet, notched trowel, and grout float.

We install vinyl flooring and laminates and things of that nature but, this is the first time we have had to option of doing tile.
They want this to stand out so it can be a selling point of the house.
We havent told people that we cant do things but we dont exactly
tell them that we have. But we get alot of experience doing it and
normally get repeat jobs and referrals off of it. Am willing to eat
some money to learn how to do it so maybe we can work in the high
end of town where people dont really complain about our prices they
say when can you start.

We have a good size portfolio of bathrooms and whole houses that
have been remodeled just none include tile. If there is a book or
something you recommend just let me know. Supposed to give the
lady an estimate on labor Tomorrow and start tearing out the
bathroom on friday.

If there are any tips on how you would do things please let me
know. Any tools you might recommend as well. We have tried to
stay true to our slogan: Turnkey Construction - Key to All Your Construction Needs.

We do everything from inside out and all interior rough framig to finish
trim to painting. We have also gotten referalls by doing everything
besides electrical and plumbing because people dont want 10
different companys coming through there home. If you could help
on the tile could really use the advice!!!
Bid it- get it-hire the right crew or person with the experience that can do it. help him and learn everything you can. work on it yourself with them for free. like a helper and learn everything you can, ask 2 many questions. finish it.. Do it again and again with no money gain for yourself. give the money to the guys doing it right. and then you've learned it, then you have done what you said you would do for the customer. And some time down the line,when you are ready to profit from it. do it.
Basically, sub the job out and use it as a class. Get another one and another one. These are classes that can make you money later on. Plus building a reputation of a true GENERAL CONTRACTOR. Something most guys are leary of. It's always hard to learn on the first one or the first 50 installs of anything. You'll know enough a few times later to add extra money into it for yourself. But finding the right guy to learn from is the #1 key to the on site class. Let him make the profit. Then you can add money on top of what he charges or you can eventually do it all yourself. Then you will be a tile guy for life, if you do tile everyday or everyweek. Tile installation changes so much that learning it is a daily or weekly event for life.
Just sub it out. And watch and get all the basics. Add a little for yourself and take all the volume that the tile guys can handle. It works in volume better. And a good tile guy is a tile guy who does only tile. You don't want to do just tile. So no harm in making money from it. Sub it out and learn..But let the tile guys be tile guys. they are good at it. Be the guy who get's the work and knows how it should be done. And then you can run many tile jobs at the same time. Then comes the payoff(volume)....A little adds up 2 alot in volume.
good luck in either way you may want to try. It's all work either way.
Do what works for you.
Then you'll know piece by piece.
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Old 03-02-2007, 10:17 PM   #13
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


^^ Great post Turner. Good ideas.
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Old 01-04-2008, 09:47 PM   #14
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by turner flooring View Post
Bid it- get it-hire the right crew or person with the experience that can do it. help him and learn everything you can. work on it yourself with them for free. like a helper and learn everything you can, ask 2 many questions. finish it.. Do it again and again with no money gain for yourself. give the money to the guys doing it right. and then you've learned it, then you have done what you said you would do for the customer. And some time down the line,when you are ready to profit from it. do it.
Basically, sub the job out and use it as a class. Get another one and another one. These are classes that can make you money later on. Plus building a reputation of a true GENERAL CONTRACTOR. Something most guys are leary of. It's always hard to learn on the first one or the first 50 installs of anything. You'll know enough a few times later to add extra money into it for yourself. But finding the right guy to learn from is the #1 key to the on site class. Let him make the profit. Then you can add money on top of what he charges or you can eventually do it all yourself. Then you will be a tile guy for life, if you do tile everyday or everyweek. Tile installation changes so much that learning it is a daily or weekly event for life.
Just sub it out. And watch and get all the basics. Add a little for yourself and take all the volume that the tile guys can handle. It works in volume better. And a good tile guy is a tile guy who does only tile. You don't want to do just tile. So no harm in making money from it. Sub it out and learn..But let the tile guys be tile guys. they are good at it. Be the guy who get's the work and knows how it should be done. And then you can run many tile jobs at the same time. Then comes the payoff(volume)....A little adds up 2 alot in volume.
good luck in either way you may want to try. It's all work either way.
Do what works for you.
Then you'll know piece by piece.
Great Post! I'm of the same opinion you just reinforced it... thanks!
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Old 01-06-2008, 12:02 PM   #15
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


Turnkey-Those were some good ideas about just helping out on the first few jobs.

If you want to do it yourself, look at the framing first. I don't know how many outside and inside corners you'll have. It's important that the walls are plumb. If they are out of plumb by 1/4" over 8' and you are tiling up half way, this is still a problem. If you are using 1/8 joints, your joint has disappeared at the top. Then you have to start "fixing" your tile. Better to fix the framing first by bringing it out.

This won't be as important if you're only going 1/2 way up the wall, but what to do about a wall with studs which are crowned out maybe 1/4 to 1/2"? Try to lay some tile on a beach ball first. Obviously, the smaller the tile, the easier they are to get to conform to the wall. This is the same problem people are having on floors. When you want to lay 2'x2' tile, any hump in the floor is magnified.

So make your walls flat and plumb in the beginning and they should also be square then also.

If you have outside corners, how will you deal with these? Bullnose? It sounds like you want to start this job in a few days and it may take some time to get the bullnose. Schlueter has a variety of profiles to deal with outside corners. There is also a smaller selection of profiles available at most building material retailers. You can make your own corners with the factory edge of a through-and-through porcelain, just make your cuts on the inside corners.

How about where the wall meets the floor? Again, Schlueter has a solution which looks clean and acts as a movement joint.

I hope you've got the tilebacker and mortar figured out by now.

How will you grout? Most people caulk between the tub and the first course of tile. You can get sanded caulks to match your grout. There are anti-mildew additives for grouts. I'm not sure how long something like this could possibly work. You may want to use some epoxy grout at some time. Some say it yellows over time, so choose a dark color I guess. If you do use it, beware that you can't just scrape it away if it gets away from you. Try the smallest portion available on a horizontal surface before you try anything vertical.

Tools-you can buy a cheap wet saw for $50 and it will produce ok cuts if the tile you are using has some texture to it. I think a good snapper with a case etc will cost you close to $300 and this is very nice because it requires no electricity, is portable, and you don't need to use ear plugs when you operate it. But for cuts which show, you pretty much must have a wet saw.

I hope some of this is useful information for you. I'm surprised the diy police hasn't shut down this question yet.
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Old 01-06-2008, 01:12 PM   #16
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


What a great thread.

Some of th most well informed posts on the matter I have seen!
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Old 01-06-2008, 01:14 PM   #17
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


if you are serious check this website out:

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...isplay.php?f=4
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:17 PM   #18
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


Take it from someone who has ran many crews and hire a experienced tile mechanic in your area to do job and put some money on top for yourself. The expense is too high to make a mistake. Tile can ruin your life first starting out and not knowing what you are doing. This trade is to be taken seriously and not a good idea to make a bad impression on a customer in a high end area. These people talk to eachother and you may never be able to do for them again.
Dont listen to the rest, get Georgia Pacific (lifetime guarantee) Denshield 1/2". Concrete boards, all brands rot out the studs after about 18months. Other tile backer boards may be cheaper but will cost you. GREEN BOARD IS IN THE PAST-- Lets leave it there. Builders have cost me fortunes by using against all TILE crews better judgement. This is a recipe for failure.
Do as I suggest and get a experienced tile mechanic with atleast 10 years experience, because there are ALWAYS things under the tile that you can not see with a naked eye that need experienced eyes. Rotten Studs, mold, plumbing issues, etc.
Hope this helps and best of luck to you. You did something a lot of people dont and thats ask for others suggestion. Kudos to you.
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:25 PM   #19
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


You need to re-think this. Bust that cherry on something a little eaiser. Be sure to do your homework.
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Old 01-13-2008, 10:46 PM   #20
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Re: Learning To Install Floor And Wall Tile!!


As I'm sure you have gotten the point by now, but just to make sure:

Hire a quality tile sub in your area and don't expect to make much profit.
- Benifits ... Work beside him/her or watch and learn as much as possible
The quality work will still have your name on it.
The referrals of smaller jobs that are less difficult,
would be the ones that you could wet your feet on.

Suggestions after this would be to pick some jobs at home, families, or employees houses that you would supply the materials at half price and use them as your learning curves.

THIS IS THE WRONG KIND OF JOB TO LEARN ON IF YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR REPUTATION AND WITHIN BUDGET.

It would cost you alot more than money if it's going to be a showpiece.

Just my humble advice.

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Last edited by J DoubleD FLoor; 01-14-2008 at 01:44 PM.
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