Johnson Exotics Quality?? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Rockford · 09-27-2007, 06:56 PM

I found some really nice looking Brazilian Teak by Johnson down here in So. California and I think I'm getting it for a pretty fair price ($4.25 sf for about 1,800 sf).
Anyway, I'm a little concerned about overall quality going with Johnson, which i think comes from China. Are they kiln drying these as well as we do here? Some of the other better known brands were going for almost twice that- are they really that much better?
The machining I saw on the samples looked supurb. I'd like to go with the solid, 3/4" as I think I'll have more flexibility when i get to the stairs, nosings and transition strips (breadboard ends).

I have some areas that are well over 20 ft in width, so I plan on gapping the courses a little every 15 feet or so with plenty of gap at the perimiter.

I'm prepared for the color to change over time and I'm OK with that, and the finish, they claim, is some 25 year thing that I'm just taking with a grain of salt.

Our climate here is pretty stable with no real humidity to speak of. We're close to the water, but winter days are in the 60s and 75's in the summer.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Chris Johnson · 09-27-2007, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockford

Anyway, I'm a little concerned about overall quality going with Johnson,

I resent that

Floordude · 09-27-2007, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockford

I found some really nice looking Brazilian Teak by Johnson down here in So. California and I think I'm getting it for a pretty fair price ($4.25 sf for about 1,800 sf).

Anyway, I'm a little concerned about overall quality going with Johnson, which i think comes from China. Are they kiln drying these as well as we do here? Some of the other better known brands were going for almost twice that- are they really that much better?
The machining I saw on the samples looked supurb. I'd like to go with the solid, 3/4" as I think I'll have more flexibility when i get to the stairs, nosings and transition strips (breadboard ends).

All exotics are milled off shore and imported. The trees are not sent here and then milled.

Johnson has been around for some time now. You will know if the kiln drying is up to snuff after the wood has reached moisture content equilibrium, and properly acclimated. Where it is no longer gaining or loosing moisture content. That could be a few days or months. Once moisture content equilibrium has been reached and all the boards are once again consistent in moisture content, measure a varity of boards to see what they measure in the widths. This will tell you if the wood was milled at inconsistent moisture content.

Quote:

I have some areas that are well over 20 ft in width, so I plan on gapping the courses a little every 15 feet or so with plenty of gap at the perimiter.

Good in theory, but what are you determining your control gaps by?? Are you going to guess? What is the client going to think about the gaps??? Are you going to fill them??

To determine the control gaps, you must first determine the woods moisture content. Next you need to determine your regions, average moisture content, with a high and low factor... Now you know the woods ability to swell and shrink, How you say?? All wood species has a shrink and swell cofficient, corrosponding to the species. All species are different.

take the S&S cofficient and multiply times the boards width. Take the boards MC and subtract that from the high average, take that number and multiply by the number you got for each boards swell number. Now you know the gap to leave between EACH row.

Quote:

Our climate here is pretty stable with no real humidity to speak of. We're close to the water, but winter days are in the 60s and 75's in the summer.

You would be surprised!!! Where is your region??

Mike Costello · 10-01-2007, 05:39 PM

Holy crap. Sounds like all the small print used to void a warantee.

If those standard were followed , would anyone even want want a hardwood floor?

Dammit Jim, Im a Craftsman, not a Scientist.

Floordude · 10-01-2007, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Costello

Holy crap. Sounds like all the small print used to void a warantee.

If those standard were followed , would anyone even want want a hardwood floor?

Dammit Jim, Im a Craftsman, not a Scientist.

LOL!!

If you do anything with finish grade wood, it is your craft to know some basic wood science. Those are all things you must know, to place & maintain a warranty, by not having any issues later.

Floordude · 10-01-2007, 07:51 PM

Let me explain and to show what can happen...

The client wants 5"x¾" plain sawn #1 Oak. You agree to install it. It is January and you bring the wood in to acclimate it. The heat is running and it is nice and toasty, and your glad your not working out there in the freezing cold. You install it and everything is hunky-dory, until April, and you get a call from a concerned and demanding homeowner, that thier floor is ruined. You go look and the floor is compressed and buckled/tented across the middle of each room. Who is at fault here??

January and it being the heating season, with the heat running, pulls almost all the humidity from inside the residence. Homes are built much tighter then they were in the old days. The wood was brought in and acclimated to the dry heat and installed tighter then a nuns crotch, because the homeowner is very picky and doesn't want the gaps that are in her other floor, in another part of the home, right now. The wood is at or around 7% Moisture Content(MC). Come April, and the spring humidity and some open windows, because it is so cool and nice. and the wood gains MC. it is now 10%, just 3%, the difference in 20-30% rH in the winter heating season, and the 50-55% during the spring and summer months(it can be more extreme then this!!!). The old existing floor, in the other part of the house, is nice flat, and tight minimal gaps if you can even call it that, but your new installed floor is a total loss.. Firewood.

Lets do the math...

The shrink and swell cofficient for Red Oak is, .00369.

3% gain in MC
3 x .00369 = .01107

5" wide Red Oak baord
.01107 x 5 = .055 inches The amount each board swelled.

Now take that number and multiply that times the number of boards across the rooms installation.
a 20 foot wide living room, which would be 40 boards, right
40 x .055 = 2.2 inches of swell across the entire floor.

So you see, if you don't know a little wood science, you can get yourself in a big bind, and your wallet is not going to like it, one bit.

Mike Costello · 10-02-2007, 07:25 AM

That is a lesson I learned years ago. I did a 4"Santos Mahogany job in January.

Heat was on, I delivered the wood a week before in a blinding New England snow storm. The wood was sitting in the room I was installing even.

Problems started when I showed up to install and the customer had thier GC install all the lovely cherry baseboard.
They freaked out when I suggested undercutting all the base and insisted I tight fit the job.
Now I was doing this job for a retailer (dont go there floordude).

After a million calls back and forth, the final desicion was to go ahead with the install as the customer is always right(pfft).
The retailer didnt have the customer sign any kind of waiver but with his word , absolved me of any responsibilty.

I did a sweet job of tight fitting and the job.

The phonecalls started and the floor had cupped. It didnt buckle cuz I nailed the bajeezus out of it.

Bottom line is the retailer calculated the risk for the install with a difficult customer and ended up having to eat a refinish. Havent heard boo about it since.Maybe they will call this winter once the heat is on and they lose a cat in the gaps.

But I guess my point is this, if we had to obey every coefficient and gap standard, I would be going home more often than not.

I use my pin meter to check for high moisture on the jobsite and the material,let the customer know the results,and tell them what may happen as a result. If they choose to go foward(99%usually do) I have a waiver signed.

Floordude · 10-02-2007, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Costello

But I guess my point is this, if we had to obey every coefficient and gap standard, I would be going home more often than not.

I'd rather go home, then have to pay for new flooring, the cost to tear out all the old, and reinstall it. Or even a complete sand & finish. I guess that is why you have the ability to show a profit or loss!!

Never lost money, on a job I didn't do.
It was a good thing, you were employed at the time, and the retailer ate it.

Mike Costello · 10-02-2007, 08:06 AM

just couldnt resist could ya

Floordude · 10-02-2007, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Costello

just couldnt resist could ya

Just stating the obvious.

Had you been independent, this would have been your loss, totally. We can all agree on that.

This is how I get contracts!!! I educate them, have an answer quick to their questions, and show them the documentation, to back up what I'm saying.

By the time I leave, I'm their guy, and all the others were trying to pull a fast one, one way or another. I actually show them, when they say... "They weren't going to do that" or "They wanted to do such & such." The flooring bibles, get me a lot of contracts.

I've had future clients, quote NOFMA standards to me word for word. Those are the clients I love. Consumers these days, are more educated about the job, then the guy they hire most of the time.

Floordude · 10-02-2007, 08:39 AM

Mike, in your nightmare scenerio above, did the floor actually cup(moisture imbalance) or was it compressed(crushed edges, that give it a cupped appearence)????

Two different animals, that almost look the same to the eye.

Just curious.

I'm not here to talk down to anyone, I just tell it like it is, cut and dry.

It is all about education. Professional debates, can be very educational, as long as they don't get nasty. It is how you handle yourself in a professional manner, to solve the concerns.

I care more about you and even Angus(who gets bent out of shape quickly when he's losing the debate), then you guys know, or I wouldn't be here.

Mike Costello · 10-03-2007, 09:13 AM

Im all for debate. I try to inject humor where appropriate.

Im thinking it was the crushed edges scenario...Damn me for putting it in too tight

Floordude · 10-03-2007, 11:57 AM

A little tip next time you run into a cupped floor, to determine if it is actually cupped or compressed.

Poke the flooring with your moisture meter. note the reading as your barely into the wood, now go deeper and note the readin, now go deeper, and note the reading. Do this till you bury the pins as deep as they go.

A compressed floor, from a humidity issue will have a fairly consistent moisture content.
A cupped floor, the reading will rise an the pins get deeper, telling you the bottom of the board is "wetter" then the top of the board. Crawl space issues, or a heater that is cranked down drying the top of the board fast(usually occompanied by gaps also, not tight)

In the Boston area, I'm told by my wood science professor, that they do not leave any perimeter expansion space. It is not needed if you know the science behind woods shrink & swell, and know what to do to prevent it.
The majority of buckled floors I have inspected, the perimeter gap was still there, yet the flooring was tented out in the field. Several places sometimes, with the expansion gap still there.