Job Problem

RemodelingMan

Landed a big tile job and been working for about 4 days now. As a way to get business I bid way lower to get business and the customers luck out too. Im not charging for removal fees or demolition for the linoleum or existing tile and carpet at No charge. These are 20" Porcelean tiles Im installing. Now the customer asked if I could do a diagonal tile pattern (Normally 3.50 sq ft) which is a much more cutting than normal but I say sure for the same price as a horizontal pattern (2.00 sq ft). Also no charges on moving appliances or furniture either. Now for the last year I ask customers for half up front and the balance on completion. I just did their neighbors house who referred them to me for my dedicated work and trustworthiness. So I ask for half from this customer and they come back with only 500 of the 3200 job. I was like heh ok its cool I'll ask for more after a few days. My mortgage is due and I wanted to use that payment for it. I ask for 1000 more today. He laughs and says "oh no I cant do that much" I could give you a couple hundred tommorow. Will that help?" So I take a angry deep breath and say sarcastically, yeah thats fine. Now here is why Im thinkin of just blowin them off and let them find someone else to finish my work.

They are getting an unbelievable, unbeatable price for the labor which would have cost them thousands more.

After his reaction today when I asked for another 1000 he says he cant do that much? I have started to think they are going to wait till Im done and then screw me. So I'll just call and tell them I have another job that is willing to pay half up front so if you wont pay I will have to put you at the end of my list.

What would you do?

Teetorbilt

Do you have a contract?

__________________
You can't solve you're problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems.

Albert Einstein

DecksEtc

I'm sure I won't be the first to ask this question so, what does the contract stipulate as far as payment goes?

By the sounds of it, I'm guessing you don't have a contract with this customer. I, of all people am not perfect, and I did do one job early on without a contract. And, guess what, I got screwed over and learned a valuable lesson. I was being a nice guy and about half way through the jerk of a customer screwed me over. The thing is, the signs were there at the beginning, I just didn't see them. Hindsight being 20/20, I now have a good idea of what to look for and NEVER do any work without a signed contract. Also, I never order any materials until the first cheque clears.

You may have to chalk this one up to being a lesson learned and walk. If I were you, I would kindly explain that you are being a nice guy, you are giving him an overly fair price, and that if he can't come up with the balance of the 50% that you normally require before starting any work that all work stops effective immediately. Tell him that he is more than welcome to find another contractor to finish the job - then hand him an invoice for the final balance due for the work you've completed thus far. Hopefully, it won't come to you walking but if you don't have a contract in place and he tries to stiff you at the end of the job, you probably won't see the money for months, if ever.

Robie

It sounds to me like you are blaming them for you not having your ducks in a row, to be honest. If I want half down, I start when I get half down. If my customer doesn't have enough money, they have no business getting work done.
I'd probably sit down with them and explain all you have done and what you intend to do and you, like everyone else, needs money to live.
To leave them with an unfinished job doesn't sit right with me.

__________________

If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters. ~Alan Simpson

DecksEtc

I agree with you to a point, Robie. I would never walk out on a contracted job unfinished. This example however, doesn't seem to fit that description. They've paid a grand total of about $700 for a $3200 job that sounds about half way done.

Most of us here have learned the lesson of not doing work without a contract. It appears to be RemodelingMan's turn for that lesson. All ethics aside, this customer isn't keeping his side of the deal and paying for the work he is having done. In this situation, I'd give him the chance to make things right by paying but also be prepared to call his bluff and walk away now before losing potential income that will pay properly.

Again, JMO...

RemodelingMan

no Contract, It was a stupid favor for the neighbors which I did their job for 1.50 a sq ft. Up to this point I have been paid 500. Minus the chisel cost 50 minus 40 gas so I have a little under half the job done and have 310 in my pocket. I hate to leave them high and dry but if I have other customers that are wanting me that are willing to pay half up front or more and this customer that has been given a freakin lottery ticket of a deal wants to play daily work daily pay then Im walkin. Yes my ducks were not in a row. That is definitely true. I messed up. The bottom line is they would still get an unimaginable deal regardless. I will call and tell them I need another 1300 or Im walkin. I have other jobs on hold.

DecksEtc

That pretty much sums up your decision. If you have other jobs waiting then give them ONE chance to rectify the outstanding balance or walk. I would make sure that the $1300 you're asking for is in cash because they sound like the type to give you a rubber cheque. I would also make sure you have written/signed agreed upon dates for the balance owing. You may end up having this problem at the end of the job too!

RemodelingMan

I honestly think they are just oblivious. I asked them did they even get other quotes on the tile installation. They said no. If I do leave them with an unfinished job and they have to rehire someone else, only then will they see how good of a price they had with me but just wanted to be tightwads...

RemodelingMan

Here are the specs:

Living Space 950 sq ft -vertical tile pattern
Lanai Space 450 sq ft - vertical tile pattern with half tile border
1400 sq ft Total

1/4 Round strip install (they didnt want to go under base board) - No Charge
Toilet Removal/Replace - No Charge
Demo: Existing ceramic tile foyer tile 40 sq ft - No Charge
Demo: Linoleum 250 sq ft - No Charge
Demo: All carpet, padding, tack strips - No Charge
Dump Fees: No Charge
Gas: No Charge

2.00 sq ft $2800 .......................... And they want to haggle when I ask for money?

Just for laughs how much would you all charge for this?

Robie

I'd charge $10K and then hire you and give you $5K to do the job.
I'm sorry...I couldn't resist.
Why are you doing all this stuff for free? If you have customers waiting, it sounds like business must be pretty good. Giving folks a break is one thing. Giving away the farm is another.

__________________

If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters. ~Alan Simpson

Mike Finley

Remodeling man, you are a complete idiot on all accounts. I say you are getting what you are asking for. Should you blow the customer off and screw them and let them find somebody else? Get serious! You're a disgrace and a loser.

I would say that are getting exactly what they are paying for, a loser and a loser is as a loser does and you're proving it. You're reaping what you have sowed and the customers are getting exactly what they paid for (or more exact they are getting what they are getting because they didn't pay for a better contractor)

Good luck, I'm not going to pat you on the back like everybody else here, and frankly I'm shocked that nobody else here has seen you for what you are. Let me guess, you have no insurance either?

RemodelingMan

Mike Finley dont call people idiots. C'mon little boy. Its children like you that give contractors the bad rap that they are all small minded jerks. I actually give people alot more than they ask. When they try to take more then Its just a greedy person I dont wanna deal with. Insurance? Yeah I have it but what the hell would that enter into this conversation for anyway? Oh yeah thats right I layed the tile and it destroyed the slab underneath! Moron. I hope that isnt your real name either. Talk about idiots? Oh yeah didnt you read my post. They arent paying anything so they cant even afford a loser like me....

Mike Finley you sure do talk alot for someone who doesnt know how to install a garbage disposal...
Hahahaha get lost.

Hamilton

I went through this recently. Contract or no contract after a time period on
a job a contractor who has been working every day consistently on a job...
on time and dependable develops a relationship with the people he is working with. I was in situation where i was following a hack who installed a stone
shower totally wrong, took half the money up front and ran. After 2 weeks
of dedicated work and throwing in a few small things for free like sealing the job... i was finished with my work and asked to be paid. With tile and stone
we have to wait 72 hours for the product to cure properly before sealing.
I asked to be paid and the owner told me hed pay me when i came back
and sealed. I explained to him the fact that i had performed my work
as described in the contract and that the extra sealing had been thrown in
for free. he actually apologized and thanked me for reminding him that not
everyone is out to screw him over and wrote the check on the spot.
I went back after the 72 hours and sealed like promised and i have earned
another referral. dont throw this job down the drain. you might just be faced
with a challenge, and it may pay off in the long run.

__________________
Jack

Hamilton Tile and Stone

"My advice....Worth the price charged"

RemodelingMan

Well today will be the 5th day on time and ready to work so If cant get the balance of half (have 500 so far) so Ill ask for 1000 today. If he says no Im walking. I gotta eat too you know.

Bob Kovacs

Maybe if you charged for the work you do, instead of giving it away as a favor to the customer, you wouldn't be living hand-to-mouth and stretching to make the mortgage payment. You say you give people a deal in order to get referrals for more work- if you keep giving everyone a deal, all you'll get is the people who want the same "do me a favor" deal.

I know Mike was a bit hard on you, but he's right- to put it bluntly, you're an idiot for doing what you're doing. It's people who bid jobs too low, don't have a contract, get into a bind because they need $500, and walk off of a job who give contractors a bad name. Sound like anyone you know?

Bob

logical

If you walk now you'll likely never get the rest you are owed. if you finish you will likely eventually get everything you quoted...although it may take a while. $500 for half the job or $3200 for all of it....your choice.

How hard is a one page contract?

Job: tile labor for this and that room

Cost: $3200

terms: 50% to start, remainder at completion, 2%/mo. on accounts past 30 days

signed; Homeoner and tile guy

that would fit on a 3x5 card


Oh yeah...wanna quote doing my house?

Mike Finley

Exactly.

Let's just get serious about Remodeling man/ Rick Anderson doing his troll thing to everybody here. While the issue that he is using to model his post around is a valid and good topic, it stinks of a troll, specifically how the the details of his story get more and more ridiculous as he goes along.


Starts out... all for $2.00 sq foot...

Since that isn't enough... 20 inch tiles! AND porcelain, hey why not?
Let's take it up another notch on the outlandish scale... 20 inch tile cut on the diagonal!!!
Oops, let me add this in too...

Now the final troll like trait - if you thought all that was outrageous, wait till I throw this in!!!! He actually normally does all of the above for $1.50 sq ft!
Then what is a dead give away of a troll when he screws up of messing up his story by forgetting what he wrote already going from making up a fake customer waiting in the wings...

... and now the fake customer changes to a real customer and actually more than one...

And finally with the everything laid out is all it's outlandishness with just enough sprinkles of reality here and there the troll goes to set the hook with the normal bait...

The only thing Rick did was miss a prime opportunity to take it up to it's finally notch where he could have thrown in the line about having to spend his money on a tile island saw to cut 20 inch porcelain tile on the diagonal!

Everybody needs to take a step back and reread his post. I guess I can understand if you have no experience with the tile trade how you might not be able to read between the lines of it all, but if you do have any knowledge of the tile trade it reeks of unbelievability.

And here is the bottom line from me: if by some miracle you aren't a troll and you really are the equivelent of a genetic missing link in the contracting trades all I can say is -

When you whore yourself out to your customers, your customers will treat you like a whore. You have no right to hold it against your customers for simply treating you like the whore you are presenting yourself as.

paintr56

I see a few have jumped you about bidding low and not having a contract. I was going to mention the same. You keep thinking your customer should be so happy to give you money because he is getting such a good deal. The truth is he didn't shop for a deal he hired a referral for the price you quoted. You have it in your mind that you are doing him a big favor and he should be very greatfull and I think this is coloring your judgement. As a home owner I am very reluctent to give 50% down I have heard too many horror stories and a lot of them start with I gave a big deposit and end with the work never got done. It doesn't sound like the 50% was part of the original agreement and it definately was not in writing. While I do not give large deposits I do have the money ready at the finish of the job.

As you have been told if you give cheap pricing to get refferals every one you bid will expect cheap pricing.

All that being said I truly hope this works out well for you, and you learn from it.

Jim Bunton

sage

Let me start by saying that we have all done favors for friends and family. And favors for friends of friends. BUT, I have to agree, your out of your fricken skull.

I know when I have a "charity gig" on the line up it takes a back seat to all the legitimate work that I have lined up (with the exception of my mommy ).

So this story sounds a bit suspect to me.

1. Why would you do a favor for a friend of a neighbor at a reduced price when you need the money to pay the mortgage? Makes no damn sense.

2. Why would you make a client/clients that are willing to pay your regular rates wait. (reiterate, when you are in need of the money)

3. Where does the favor come into play if the client doesn't know that you are working at reduced rates when you priced the job. (timing perhaps, if so, if anything that urgency should bring a premium)

I could go on, but why bother.
You need to re-evaluate the way you run your show, maybe then you won't have to stress on the mortgage.

BTW I didn't see anyone speak on the quality of your work, I don't think it's cool to jab back at other peoples posts about how to's and ?'s. thats what we are here for. You asked for people's perspective on the issue and that's what you got. Some her have a gentle touch some definately don't.

__________________
-Lead from the front, or dont lead at all-

sage

I second that.

__________________
-Lead from the front, or dont lead at all-