Installation Rules and Guidelines - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

CarpetOne · 04-26-2008, 06:28 AM

I own a flooring store and want to put together a complete set of installation rules and guidelines for all our installers to adhere to. I need carpet, ceramic, laminate, wood, vinyl. My goal is to provide this to each installer so they will know what they are accountable to and have this as a warranty guide to all our customers. Do any of you professional installers have suggestion on where I can find some good written installation standards to pull together? I have found some good ones on carpet at the CRI web site but am having a problem with the rest. Your help will be greatly appreciated.

Mike Costello · 04-26-2008, 08:59 AM

I do understand what your saying here but good subs shouldnt need a list of dos and donts from their store.

Do extensive checks on your subs, talk to people they have worked for ect ect.

The CR101 is a good book for carpet installation standards but its rather elementary for the seasoned pro.

Maybe sit down with a few of your crews and come up with your own list of standards?

Floordude · 04-26-2008, 08:49 PM

I suggest setting up a CFI training coarse. They will get hands on training for just what your wishing.

Once you start providing training and telling another contractor how to do his job, he is no longer an independent business, he or she, becomes your employee.

Bud Cline · 04-27-2008, 04:23 PM

You can purchase a copy of the TCNA Handbook for Installation of Ceramic Tile from the TCNA.

http:www.tileusa.com.

You'll also need the ANSI Specs that are available with the Handbook purchase.

In addtion the F.I.T.S program is now going to be teaching installation courses (by the book) at locations anywhere on demand as well as in major cities around the country.

http://www.fitscertified.org/

You can also participate in an "installation professional" website at
http://www.thefloorpro.com

In fact, have all your guys sign up.

Carpet One should also be able to direct you to all the training and seminars coming up this year.....OH WAIT, I forgot.....Carpet One is only into sales, not training.

MrFloors · 04-28-2008, 02:10 PM

Well let's see. Only into sales? Sounds like a Flooring America shop to me. And here they are dropping like flies.

Service is the game these days.

So you better play it like a pro.

deffed · 04-29-2008, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFloors

Well let's see. Only into sales? Sounds like a Flooring America shop to me. And here they are dropping like flies.

Service is the game these days.

So you better play it like a pro.

Maybe the guy is just running some crews and wants to make sure if theres a problem with a job he dosn't hear I didn't know or you didn't tell me
just wants cover his arse

CarpetOne · 05-02-2008, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deffed

Maybe the guy is just running some crews and wants to make sure if theres a problem with a job he dosn't hear I didn't know or you didn't tell me
just wants cover his arse

This is precisely what I am trying to do. Every job is different but there should be a standard to govern when a problem arises. One of the main problems I see is Salespeople overselling installation. “Just let the installer handle it” just doesn’t cut it anymore.
Thanks for all your input. What I have done so far is find every type laminate and hardwood we sell and print their recommended installation guidelines. You would be surprised at how much is covered in these docs. I am going to put these together with the TCNA handbook and whatever I find on vinyl along with the CRI docs on carpet to form an installation binder that all the salespeople, customers and installers can refer to in case there is a complaint. Someone is always wrong in a complaint and maybe this will help alleviate some of the finger pointing. Any more thoughts on this?

Bud Cline · 05-02-2008, 08:52 AM

Quote:

....customers and installers can refer to in case there is a complaint.

That isn't the time to refer to your manual. Why wait until something goes to hell to refer to the specs. I would think the smarter approach would be to insist that all installers read that sucker cover to cover and know the contents. Occasional quizzing would also be in order.

This is the big problem with installations today. No one will read the instructions. People are just plain lazy these days. It is easier to go to a message board and ask a question than it is to read the instructions that are available with each and every product manufactured or to go to the manufacturers website to find the specs. If people don't use computers then the task is harder for them if not impossible because they may have to unfold a brochure or turn-over a box or bag to find the instructions.

It wouldn't hurt for the "know-it-all" sales staff to also know the installation manual inside and out. OK OK OK, I'm sorry, we all know that ain't gonna happen.

Demonseed · 05-02-2008, 10:49 AM

As much as I see this as a good idea in 'theory', I also see this as a potentially disasterous idea in practice. The reason I say this, you may send a crew out to a job, you figure it is a 2 day job, and you get a phone call, I am reviewing the specs and installation instructions and I have to let the materiall acclimate on the job for 72 hours, also we think there is VAT under the floor we have to rip, we don't have the recommended adhesive, etc, etc etc.

Now we all know somethings have to be done by the book, and some things we find better more efficient ways of doing. In a sense, you are basically telling your crews everything has to be done by the book, and if they don't do it that way all potential problems will be their responsibility. So what happens when you are scheduling work, and an installer picks up on an oversight, or a condition you did not plan on, that he normally has a quick fix for, but instead is going to give you rule 7: section III: Paragraph D:....

Bud is correct about the sales staff, we did a job last month rip out over vinyl tile, the sales person writes she believes it is VCT, even though everywhere else in the area clearly has 9X9 VAT tile, all the furniture has been moved, all of the base is off the walls, and there is no money or time for an abatement crew to come in. This is when we do a controlled rip out, technically we should have stopped, but we managed to get the carpet up with a minimal number of tiles popping, technically over the allowed limit.

Could we have thrown the salesperson under the bus, yep. The extra money they bill for the rip up and extra floor prep, is nothing compared to what the abatement guys would have charged....

CarpetOne · 05-02-2008, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Cline

That isn't the time to refer to your manual. Why wait until something goes to hell to refer to the specs. I would think the smarter approach would be to insist that all installers read that sucker cover to cover and know the contents. Occasional quizzing would also be in order.

This is the big problem with installations today. No one will read the instructions. People are just plain lazy these days. It is easier to go to a message board and ask a question than it is to read the instructions that are available with each and every product manufactured or to go to the manufacturers website to find the specs. If people don't use computers then the task is harder for them if not impossible because they may have to unfold a brochure or turn-over a box or bag to find the instructions.

It wouldn't hurt for the "know-it-all" sales staff to also know the installation manual inside and out. OK OK OK, I'm sorry, we all know that ain't gonna happen.

That is precisely why I am doing it. ALL salespeople will be required to read and be familiar with all the installation rules. Therefore they will have a better understanding about what they can convey to the customer.
We will require all installers to read and sign an agreement to follow any of the rules in our manual.

Bud Cline · 05-02-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

That is precisely why I am doing it. ALL salespeople will be required to read and be familiar with all the installation rules. Therefore they will have a better understanding about what they can convey to the customer.
We will require all installers to read and sign an agreement to follow any of the rules in our manual.

That's all fine and dandy and I'm for ya. I think it's a great idea. Just keep in mind that unless a person does this type of work, I mean gets down and dirty and literally does the work themselves, it will be easy for an inexperienced salesperson to skim over or miss some things that should be picked-up on.

I worked for retailers as a sub for years and tried to get them to put their fancy-ass sales people in some coveralls and send them with me on some jobs from time to time to let them get their precious manicures dirty and hopefully learn something and appreciate what it's like in the real business of floorcovering. HELL NO MAN!!! Couldn't do that! They are much too important "on the sales floor".

Well let me tell you.......when I ran into an oversight in the field that was something missed by the salesperson I didn't hesitate to charge a premium to correct it. If it took a bite from their commissions or took them all for that matter I didn't care. If you as a retailer can't properly train your sales people in the art of reality then they deserve what they get in the form of compensation when it comes to cost overruns.

If you as the owner have never worked as an installer that's fine but then you too need to grab your coveralls and spend some time on the jobs. And I don't mean standing around in your pennyloafer shoes watching the rest of us work and you being the boss.

Demonseed · 05-02-2008, 11:41 AM

"That's all fine and dandy and I'm for ya. I think it's a great idea. Just keep in mind that unless a person does this type of work, I mean gets down and dirty and literally does the work themselves, it will be easy for an inexperienced salesperson to skim over or miss some things that should be picked-up on."

This reminds me of a salesperson coming to a job sight, watching us trowelling out glue, and decided he wanted to be on the other side of the glue, it would have been nice if he walked where we hadn't glued yet, it would have been cool if he jumped, but it would not have been as funny, watching him walk and go down in the wet glue. The irony, glue all over your suit and a shiny BMW outside, how does one drive home?

CarpetOne · 05-03-2008, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Cline

If you as the owner have never worked as an installer that's fine but then you too need to grab your coveralls and spend some time on the jobs.

I started in the business as an installers helper. Bought my own tools a few years later. Started a retail store a few years later. I had in house installers for years and oversaw them like you do your employees. But now it is different. I didn't explain in my previous post that I sold that business in 2001 and I am now getting back into it. We now have all subs, which is fine but I don't know what each is capable. They all seem to be doing a fine job but there is no accountability anywhere between salespeople, installer and customer. And yes my salespeople will go on actual installations. They will also be called out to any Job where there is an oversight for the installer to train the salesperson right. I'm not the most popular person right now in the office as I have brought the installer way up the ladder. I give the installers way more respect than they had previously and expect more professionalism from them. I am in the process of retraining all the salespeople to sale every job from the installers perspective. It wont be easy or fast but eventually they will be able to do it correctly 90% of the time. We can deal with the 10% variance. Right now it is more like 50%.

CarpetOne · 05-03-2008, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demonseed

As much as I see this as a good idea in 'theory', I also see this as a potentially disasterous idea in practice. The reason I say this, you may send a crew out to a job, you figure it is a 2 day job, and you get a phone call, I am reviewing the specs and installation instructions and I have to let the materiall acclimate on the job for 72 hours, also we think there is VAT under the floor we have to rip, we don't have the recommended adhesive, etc, etc etc.

Now we all know somethings have to be done by the book, and some things we find better more efficient ways of doing. In a sense, you are basically telling your crews everything has to be done by the book, and if they don't do it that way all potential problems will be their responsibility. So what happens when you are scheduling work, and an installer picks up on an oversight, or a condition you did not plan on, that he normally has a quick fix for, but instead is going to give you rule 7: section III: Paragraph D:....

Bud is correct about the sales staff, we did a job last month rip out over vinyl tile, the sales person writes she believes it is VCT, even though everywhere else in the area clearly has 9X9 VAT tile, all the furniture has been moved, all of the base is off the walls, and there is no money or time for an abatement crew to come in. This is when we do a controlled rip out, technically we should have stopped, but we managed to get the carpet up with a minimal number of tiles popping, technically over the allowed limit.

Could we have thrown the salesperson under the bus, yep. The extra money they bill for the rip up and extra floor prep, is nothing compared to what the abatement guys would have charged....

Great example. In these cases I feel it is important for the store to know what the installer is doing. We have to warranty the installers installation and I feel it is important to know what he has done. Not all installers will make a quick fix and make it right. Besides we want to have the installer go over all these rules and make whatever corrections to them they feel is necessary to be able to do their job. But when something fails it is critical to have a standard to measure the installation by. Acceptable installation practices you see in a lot of agreements is not acceptable to me. And whats wrong with a phone call from the installer saying "Hey I ran into this problem. I need to do this to fix it. What do you think?" Then if we need to get the customer to sign off on a quick fix for a quick fix price we wont have any liability problems in the future. Installer or store. Thanks for your candid input.

rusty baker · 06-14-2008, 04:47 PM

Just remember CRI is guidelines. They can't be followed on all products. And CFI is overpriced for what they teach. And customer sign-offs won't normally hold up in court. The judges say "You are the professional, you knew that was not right."

'

csheafer · 07-05-2008, 09:22 PM

Personally, from an installer stand point, and one who ran 10 to 15 crews, the sales people going out on a job site is not very favorable to me. Sales people think they know more then they do and have a tenancy to act like they are the experts and not the installers, and some make the installer look bad in front of the customers just to build their egos.
What I have found that seems to work the best is that there be a store "foreman" that goes out on the jobs, does spot checks, does on site training for "challenged" installers and in addition, have the installation manager do occasional spot checks.
If there is a problem on the job site, don't have the installer calling the sales person, leave them out of it.

I think I understand what you are looking for as far as "standards" go.
Those can be pretty far reaching but the majority of the issues can be dealt with at the time of the measure. More problems are caused by not doing what needs to be done at the time of the measure than anything.
A check list for the measure person is the best that they have to sign off on.
There needs to be a check list for each differant kind of flooring being installed.
For instance...
Measuring a kitchen for a laminate floor.
1) Levelness of floor... did they put down a straight edge and make sure it is within guidelines for installing a laminate floor?
2) Height of the fridge. Is raising the floor going to cause a problem with the fridge fitting now? What about the dishwasher?
3) How many layers are on the floor now, what are they and how thick is each one?
4) What doorways are in the kitchen and what do they lead to, and what is installed in the other rooms? What transitions are going to be needed and does the laminate company make the ones that are going to be needed?
5) Is there 1/4 round down already, is it to be R&R or are they getting new?
6) Is there any evidence of any moisture problems?
7) Fridge, is there an ice maker?
8) Range, gas or electric? Is there a plug or is it direct wired?

Is that the kind of information you are looking for?