Hardwood Expansion In Humid Weather?

workswithwood

just got back from looking at a hardwood floor for a customer. the problem is, as the weather becomes humid, the floor "buckles" up in the middle. seems to me that the floor is expanding width wise and causing the boards to buckle up at the joints. it is a prefinished oak floor, 2" wide boards in a room thats 20x20 with various jogs and angles.

the most interesting part of it all is there are only 4 boards that buckle up, for a length of 10 feet or so, and the HO says it will rise up to an inch and a half off the sub floor. it only happens in the summer (humidity) and in the winter is fine.

there is a crawl space under it, and the crawl space has a concrete floor. i checked it out, and couldnt find any signs of major moisture problems from humidity. the crawl space seems to be properly vented on 2 sides, with the other 2 sides abutting a full basement.

anyone know of a cause for the floor to buckle? (perhaps there isnt enough room around the border for expansion?)

what would be the best way to fix it? the HO is trying not to replace the whole floor, however i already mentioned it may be the only way to fix the problem. there has to be an easier way. anyone??

Cdat

Pop out the 4 boards and glue in 4 replacement boards w/o the tongue and groove. Never saw 2 inch buckle like that a whole inch. I've seen wider bow up but never an inch. Pop off some of the floor trim/shoes and see if there is a gap up to and under the drywall. There should be a decent amount of room for the floor to expand.

Most likely the floor was installed without being climatized to the in house humidity.

PrecisionFloors

That one. Coupled with too little expansion space, will result in exactly what is happening.

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ChrWright

Ditto.

I would imagine if you check, you'll find the perimeter is installed tight to the walls or baseboards.

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workswithwood

i just got back form pulling a couple floor trim boards off and i found the floor tight to the wall, not even an 1/8" gap, in the areas i inspected.
would it be possible to trim the flooring away from the wall without removing the floor boards?? if so, How? only tool i can think of using is the fein tool, however that will take forever, and cost a lot in blades. also, would i want to do this in a less humid enviroment, such as fall or winter?

3 walls have baseboard heat on them, and i would have to remove the baseboard to cut the floor, and even if i did that, the fein tool wouldnt fit under the fins. is there any other saw to use for this application?

thanks for the help guys!!!

Cdat

I'd use a circular saw, toe kick or jamb saw with a metal fence used as a jig held at an angle.

Is that drywall it butts up against? I'd just undercut it.

Floordude

An undercut saw, up on edge.

This is actually from lack of proper acclimation before installation started. It may very well have been acclimated to the winter dry heating season and installed tight. Moist crawl spaces cause cupping.

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workswithwood

will an undercut saw fit underneath the fins of a heating baseboard? the flooring buts up against drywall, so cutting the drywall is an option, however like i said, 3 walls have baseboard heat on them, and there isn't a way of getting under them without removing the entire thing. not a problem, just a pain in the arse

Jim Wood

Use a Fein saw under the baseboards, it will be quick and easy.

stevensmth89

It should work out.

Hope i was helpful,
Steven

Cdat

Spammer be gone:

Floordude

Is this the post you were talking about, Craig?


It is called skip nailing... A fast paced HACK practice to get done fast, get paid and never to be seen again. Rack out the floor and skip nailing 2 or 3 rows. Nail a row good, and then skip again. You seriously think the floor is laying back down flat with fasteners sticking out of the flooring, or out of the subfloor???


This is skip nailing. Path of least resistance. exaggerated by, but not limited to, a lack of proper acclimation and not maintaining consistent climate. The flooring was installed too dry for the regions average Moisture content if it is actually nailed every 8-12 inches.

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craigt617

Floor dude,
These are the posts I was referring to in" best way to nail last couple rows".

You stated: "Allowing the flooring to gain moisture from a major humidity rise, causes buckling. When I look at a buckled floor, the expansion space is usually still there, with the buckle out in the center of the room."

"The expansion space is not there to save the floor, as much as it is to save the structure. It can push walls off the foundation, if the floors take on enough moisture, glued or nailed does not matter."

"Ya, don't use liquid nails. Use a premium urethane. PL Premium works great." Unquote!
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These posts clearly say that, You must leave expansion room next to walls or anything else the floor may need to be installed around, or your floor could buckle in the middle of the floor.
Absolutely nobody said anything in these posts about any skip nailing. So about your skip nailing comment... What are you reffering to???

So I hope these posts help clear up the facts about leaving room for expasion.

Floordude

It would behoove you to take a wood science class or two.

All the fasteners holding the floor across the floor, are going to keep the expansion space intact, unless there is a major water intrusion, close or right next to the wall. If a floor is fastened properly, You will not see a buckle, unless a major change in moisture content happens, Fact!
The flooring is going to buckle at it's weakest point. If it is acclimated & fastened properly, regular humidity changes will not buckle the floor. Period!

Have a talk with Howard Brickman, of Brickman consulting and some of the historic homes around Boston and the New England area. The installations are preformed tight to the walls. It is mandatory you understand wood and wood science, before you tackle a historic home, like he is known to take on.

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craigt617

You can clearly see from the posts above that the flooring had no expansion room and buckled in the middle of the floor. And that appears to be how the issue was resolved.
Yes, the floor will expand when humidity is present in the home and when even more humidity is present, it can buckle. Flooring and wood products 101. If you hold a match to wood-it will burn!
The point isnt whether a floor will buckle when an unusual amount of humidity is introduced to a floor, every one here knows that it will. The point is, and was, whether expansion gaps are left for the floor to move or to save the walls from being pushed. I'll say again! They are left there so the floor can expand!
The middle of the floor is the weakest because it has more flooring around it that needs to move first. So, leaving expansion gaps along walls will allow the outside of the floor to move, in turn, allowing the middle of the floor to move next.
As far as your wood science class comment goes- wood science is easily obtainable on Google. Experience is the key, and not so easily obtainable. I suggest you get out there and fix some of these problem jobs yourself and then come back and make an argument.
Are you a salesman?! You keep trying to sell me something, that I just aint buying!

Floordude

The floor may compress the edges and have a cupped appearence, but if fastened right and acclimated properly to the regions average moisture content or gaps left in the floor if the wood reads lower then average, at time of installation, the floor is not going to buckle out in the middle because of a normal rise in humidity for that region.

So, what is the difference in all the fasteners holding an entire floor down 1000s and the 2x4 bottom wall plate, being just another board in the installation. It is wood and it is anchored with less fasteners then a row of oak. Your last boards along the wall in the wood floor are top nailed, now how much push is on a perimeter top nail when there is an expansion space?
I could go on and on. Wood is wood and does what wood does. Buckling is extreme. If it goes back down, without any evidence of fasteners(pulled out or still in the subfloor sticking out)hindering it going back down flat again. That tells me, there is no fasteners. Which goes back to say, it would not be buckled had it been fastened properly, and proper acclimation was achieved.

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craigt617

Floor dude,

Workswithwood said in first post "that the floor only buckles in summer and in winter is fine. And that there was not any expansion gaps left around perimeter". There were no fasteners hindering the floor from laying back down, no evidence of skip nailing. Just the obvious fact that there were no expansion gaps next to the walls, and the floor was buckling in the middle.

All hardwood floors move from humidity even if there is 1,000,000 staples in it, and AVERAGE humidity for a region, is just that AVERAGE, it is not exact. Meaning the humidity could go well above or well below average, that is why there must be expansion gaps left on all linear walls.

The only floors I have ever put expansion joints in through out the middle of a floor, is a gymasium with 10,000 square feet. I would never suggest to a home owner to put these in their floor. It dont need them. Just expansion gaps on all linear walls! So their floor dont buckle OR the floor dont push their wall plate (very uncommon).

And I find it unprofessional for you to imply anybody here is skip nailing, and not acclimating wood properly. I can see that you can go on and on about this, but your comments to me thus far have been irrelavant.

Floordude

Craig, I'm sorry I cannot paint a clear picture for you by banging keys on a keyboard.

If the floor goes back down flat, there is not and never was a fastener in those boards. PERIOD It must have been a floating floor and not a fasten down floor. If that is the case, then yes, the expansion space at walls is very important. But this whole discussion has been about a fastened or glue down wood floor.

You come to your conclusions on the misinformation you have been fed. My conclusion from the limited information given, is based on wood science, and can be proved easily and has been documented extensively.

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Floordude

Both of these buckled floors, still had a perimeter expansion space.
Kinda blows you theory, that no perimeter expansion causes buckling.

A gain in moisture content in the wood flooring causes buckling.

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craigt617

floordude , I was not only talking about stapled down and glue down. I was talking about all wood flooring, ALL wood flooring needs expansion gaps around the perimeter, including floating, including engineered, all. And squeaks also develop if rubbing tightly against a wall. The pictures you provided are clearly not installed by a professional. So please dont try painting anymore pictures. Because its simple, all wood floors need expansion gaps.

Prime examples, not as the pictures above, would show the expansion gaps to prove their theory. Your pictures show moisture problems and no nails, the second shows a typical glue down, wet layed, probably to tight to walls. The moisture pushes the flooring, the lack of no where to go causes the buckling.