Flooring Or Cabinetry First

JonM

I would think the optimum answer would be whom ever got there first...the flooring guy or the cabinet installer...

SelfContract

Which comes the next question... what if... the flooring guy waits for the cabinet guy comes... and/or the cabinet guy still waits for the flooring guys comes?.. Do we have a money$ tight yet!?? J/K...


The only advantage (for floor after cabinet option) I see is with proper shoe molding around cabinets and walls, it will hide the gap between vinyl & cabinet legs, if any, and also old floor can be taken out, & new vinyl floor can be replaced with new shoes in future for example. Also, with mold/shoes installed covering vinyl edges, different floors with different thicknesses or transitions with underlying OSB (for future replacement) will be hidden & not obvious shown to HO eyes.

Jerksticks

What if the dishwasher goes bad? How do you get it out then? And wouldn't you be able to tell that there was no flooring underneath it?

I'm a firm believer in floor first. It just seems thorough. In fact, it is a selling point. Tell the client something like, "I've seen contractors cut the floors up to the cabinet, but then you can't get the dishwasher out if it leaks or whatever". I'm sure they will have no problem paying the extra $100 to account for under-cabinet flooring, and more importantly, a complete floor. Plus i hate shoed cabs.

pinwheel

If it in a kitchen Please do yourself a favor & do not use plywood as a filler. Lay hardwood all the way. If you ever have a water leak, the water is going to go under the hardwood & you're going to have to tear it out. If you lay the wood under the cabinets, dishwasher, fridge & anywhere else there might be a water leak, the water will run out in front of the appliance/cabinets & you'll possibly see it before you have too much water damage to the floors.

PVC Trim Guy

I always install flooring first with the exception of laminate floating floors. They cant float with the weight of cabinets and countertops. The only problem with that is you have to either build out your toe kicks or use a thicker material as the usual 1/4" toe kick will not cover expansion/movement gaps.

bconley

As always the answer is; it depends. What kind of floor?,who's the boss, whats the schedule, cabinet details, subs schedules.
The deciding factors for me include, pre-finished hardwood most of cabs first (I like to set refer panel directly on the FF) site finished after floor and first sanding, tile after cabinets.
In remodels scheduling is important if you can get your flooring or painting done while waiting for countertops it can save weeks.
Of course if there are furniture toes or suspended cabs floors first.
It could go on and on but the answer is; it depends

bconley

Oh, base shoe all the time unless you are scribing the cabs to the floor.

KG007

We do flooring and cabinets. I strongly prefer ANY kind of flooring down first if we have a situation where it's new cabinets going in. Exception is laminate, which needs to expand and contract as mentioned above. Putting cabinets on laminate is like putting a clamp on a floating floor and will cause it to fail.

One caution - if you are putting down a hand-scrapped wood that has lots of "up and down" to it, might want to use a non-hand-scrapped wood of the same width and thickness stained to match under the cabinets (if they aren't on furniture feet).

Next question is, painter first or flooring guy first? Paint baseboard and quarter round before putting it on or after? Finish carpenter first with baseboard or flooring guy first? I have to fight my guys every time to get them to do it in the order I want.

bconley

Pre finished flooring (what is I assume your talking about) goes last.
You need to keep as many people off those floor as you can!
Cabinets,trim, electric and plumbing trim, floors, base shoe, carpet, hardware, touch-up, done.

Don't tell me you can cover the pre finished wood up, it doesn't work it gives a false sense of security and acts like sandpaper when dirt gets under the covering.

I prefer site finished it is a much better product.
Most pre-finished floors are really fragile and dent and scratch easily but don't repair easily.

You want it done your way because it is easier for your guys, but the best end product is achieved in this order.

KG007

Hate to break your bubble, but you are incorrect about prefinished hardwood. People who have your prejudice about them are never convinced, but here are the facts:

1. The wood in a prefinished hardwood is EXACTLY the same as in the equivalent S/S. If you are doing a #1 common 3/4 x 2-1/4 oak, the woods are exactly the same. If you do a 3/4 hickory, the wood is exactly the same. So on and so on. If you are comparing say a 5/16' engineered to a 3/4 solid it is apples and oranges. Engineered have a wear layer that, on most products over 3/8", is about the same as the wear layer on a piece of 3/4" solid. However, if you damage them past the wear layer they can't be refinished. (If you gouge 3/4 solid deeper than the nail heads you ae at the end of the life of that floor.)

2. On S/S you typically get 3 coats of poly. Some areas of the country usually just do two. That's it. On prefinished you usually get 6 to 10 coats, plus aluminum oxide which is a hardening agent which makes the finish much harder. Plus if the wood is stained in the factory it is under constant and controlled environmental conditions. You can't do this on site - if it's raining and cold you get a slightly different result than if it is warm and dry, sometimes dramatically different.

3. Before you start yelling about "that's because you sell prefinished" or "that's because it's easier," we do BOTH and I am perfectly happy doing either for clients.

4. If I'M in charge of the schedule, which doesn't happen on new construction (of which we do little because builders mainly want cheapest, which isn't us), the floor doesn't go down until after electrical, drywall, etc., is done. And if we are doing both I try to schedule it to go bam, cabinets immediately after. If anyone does have to come in for punch list, etc., they all know and have been told to not scratch the damned floor. And I still have to remind them and watch them and try to train them to not lay tools on, etc., and it still sometimes happens and you have to replace a board, or more. BUT prefinished is less likely to get scratches from small boo boo's than S/S because the finish is harder.

5. Certainly if you cover the floor and have debris under it ANY floor will potentially scratch. MORE true for S/S. Biggest two problems are boots carrying in debris/stones in the sole, etc., and carelessness tossing tools onto a floor that has just been laid. I often go cut a piece of carpet for them to use (turn it upside down) and still find people dong this. On some jobs crew are told to remove shoes and/or carry a spare pair of sneakers.

6. As a matter of record, we have seldom had trouble with floors getting scratched because of putting them down before the cabinets, baseboard, etc. But it can happen, and usually involves considerable cursing.

7. Yes, as a matter of fact I DO want my crews to do it as I schedule it. I'm the freaking owner and have scheduled it and paying them to do it my way. You think maybe trying to figure the absolute hardest way to do a job is the way to go? Maybe I should re-think my whole life philosophy.

Now, regarding the order for other stuff. I like to paint or stain base and quarter round before installing, then it can be touched up after it is down. Sometimes I run out of time and it goes down only primed or with one coat, and the painter does it after being installed. He prefers it that way! I just think it's easier to paint it on a sawhorse. I also like to install base (if we're doing it) after whatever flooring is down. Seen too many jobs where the height of the baseboard doesn't jibe with the flooring, either leaving gaps (usually with carpet, but also with vinyl or laminate) or having too much of skimpy 3-1/4 covered up, only revealing maybe a couple inches of base. But most finish guys want to but the base on first.

So it's your personal preference. I just prefer it the way I've described for various reasons and it seems to work okay, but I'm open to persuasion if anyone has good reasons or experience on a better way.

Roberts Ren

We do hardwoods and cabinets all over the south GA, AL, TN, NC & SC and I see it both ways but when we do both, new conscruction or reno we tell the customer the "Ideal" lay would be floors, trim and cabinets. Now I also tell them that it would save them money to set the cabinets on flooring thickness plywood, then run up to the cabinets. At the end of the day I let the customer decide BUT sway them towards flooring first. If we do site finish and they want the flooring first, we install sand, stain, and two coats poly then paper and do a third coat after punch out :-)

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Builtmany

I would say floor first no doubt. Afterwards the base cabinets will have a matching toe kick installed. Possibly a shoe molding if necessary that is finished like the cabinets, not the floor finish. IMO you want all of the cabinets to look like furniture resting on top of the floor.

bconley

If I could find a way to ensure the prefinished floors wouldn't get scratched I would lay it first, like with site finished but I know that doesn't deliver the best product.
There are too many trades working on top of the floor for too long for something not to go wrong

RefleX

This will always be a hot subject, so I will say a couple things, being that this is completely preference.

You can work a deal with the floor guy when theres no cabinets to cut around.

Cabinets look like crap ontop of hardwood. They look like furniture instead of part of the house.

You shouldn't be putting hardwood in a kitchen anyways, IMO.

EDIT: I didn't feel like reading the whole thread, so my bad if these arn't kitchen cabinets.

stillstoked

flooring first is my vote. when it has to come up (and hardwood in a kitchen will have to) they can deal with it then. (and they will)

rusty baker

By the way, it's "hand scraped" not "hand scrapped". Don't know why everyone wants to put 2 "p's" in scraped.

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nailkiller1

before i vote
I would like to say it can be done either way and look the same when complete
Butttttt if i have to choose
I can do a much nicer job with the flooring if i do it first
1. I can get the flooring much tighter together without cabs in way
2. no face nails in high traffic areas

hawaii

If you install floor first:
It is easier
You can scrach it when you install cabinets
If you have water damage it is hard to fix because the floor goes under the cabinets

If y ou install cabinets first:
It is hard to fit the floor around the cabinets
If this is a nali down floor you have to glue the floor under the cabinets otherwise you will have nail holes.

So now depends what you do you pick what goes first.

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Builtmany

That's a hell of a way to run a job. Whoever gets there first.

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PrecisionFloors

You'd be surprised....

Back in the late '90s when all I was doing was new construction in S. FL, there were many, many days when we would show up at the same time as electricians, plumbers, insulation, painters, and aluminum porch crews. Oh and they were pouring the driveway too.

Make a phone call and you were told "claim an area and just get it done". I **** you not. I have pulled up on a jobsite and counted 8 different crews fighting for the same real estate.

That was a huge reason I got away from new construction and S. FL


My opinion, cabinets first (even though I love it when we go first). Reason being, odds are the floors will get replaced several times before the cabinets do. Aesthetically it should be a wash, as 99% of the time you're gonna run shoe on the cabinets either way.

Dishwasher is a non issue, unless there are multiple layers of flooring, in which case that is not what this discussion is about. Maximum height on a new floor install should be 3/4" give or take an 1/8" and I've yet to see a new dishwasher that doesn't have that much adjust-ability in the legs to get it out of the hole.

The only downside to it, is you lose that height at the kick-plate, but almost all newer cabinet designs have a taller toe space than the old days.

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