The fish that got away. - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Demonseed · 11-28-2007, 04:23 PM

The last few weeks my time has been consumed with my normal work, and a variety of other things. One of those things was bidding on a large installation that would have opened alot of doors for me. Everything seemed to be in order, except for one thing, which cost me this oppurtunity but has taught me some lessons.

I went out on day one, to do a quick measurement of the job site, it was much larger than I was led to believe, so it took substantially longer than I planned, which was fine this happens. I left to add things up and work on a number. I also made a few phone calls to secure the people I would need if I landed the job. Due to the scope of the work, I asked to have those people come to the job site with me, you know 2 sets of eyes, more credibility, etc.

That was scheduled several times and everytime something came up and I did not press the issue. In the meantime the Company added on areas and selected a material from the samples I left. I revised the numbers and submitted a bid. My gut feeling had been to show up with at least 2 of the workers I would have been using (professionals in their field), and I let it slide. I have no idea why I did this.

I basically let someone talk me out of my gut instinct. It was a serious job, the person I was partnering with to do it, basically treated it casually and I fell into that same attitude, thinking it would not make a difference. That one lapse led the customer to doubt my ability to complete the job in the allotted time frame.

Can you believe that? A 5 figure install, with almost $20/yd in labor lost because I let a few people blow me off and not keep appointments. BTW, I was the freaking LOW bid.

MattCoops · 11-28-2007, 05:01 PM

So because another person wasn't there to present the estimate you lost the bid?

Doesn't make sense to me.
Did the customer ask a question that you could not answer because your installer has knowledge but you don't?

Mike Finley · 11-28-2007, 05:45 PM

You missed out on being the low bid? Maybe thank him for it, now you're free to make some money on something else.

Demonseed · 11-28-2007, 07:45 PM

Heck, it does not make sense to me either. To protect the people that gave me the information I am going to give you the details as generically as possible.

It was a job for a medium sized company in Connecticut. It was roughly 700 yards in a functioning office area, it entailed Night/Weekend work. It was a lift job ( lifting the partitions) with an average amount of furniture, rip out, remove replace cove base, install new carpet and have everything back the way it was by Monday morning.

In their perspective, this was a huge task to be completed in the allotted time frame, in my mind it was 2 light days of work with the crew I was bringing in. While I knew, I should have at least brought the furniture guys in to assess everything, once the scheduling problems happenned, I just compensated for sight unseen, by increasing the labor rate and the margin on the materials, at this point I had already been to the job site 4 times, and there was really nothing out of the ordinary to be addressed. (since I have done this type of work alot).

In their eyes, everyone else bidding was bringing in crews and finding worst case scenarios. Which even if they did occur, I was prepared for them. ( my worst case scenario, it would be me tagging furniture on day one (night time after hours) and prepping the rip around the partitions, beginning the rip out where I could and basically facilitate the work for day 2. Day 2 was going to me and 5 guys, in which I estimated in an 8 hour day, we would have completed the lift, empty areas, and most of the offices. But I also had 2 more guys available if needed, for both full days of work). Day 3 I figured a half day to finish.

At some point in their decision making process, they did not have confidence that this job could be completed (by me), without me bringing other people to the jobsite (as the other bidders did). Hence while the blame lies on myself for not following my instinct, I never imagined the doom and gloom the others would bring to the table. The partitions were installed properly, but I still have to bring in guys that are qualified to rebuild them if they fall apart during the lift, so that price would not have changed, the furniture was normal office furniture and I detailed their responsibilities, the rip out was disposal on site (I was prepared to bring stripping machines, but from the areas I tested, it wasn't needed).

Whatever the reasons for not going with me, in the speculation department, the actual reason I was told in extreme confidence, they had been convinced the job could not be done for the price I gave them and they were skeptical that I did not bring in anyone else to help with the estimate.

I say the heck with them, I hate to say this, I hope whoever they chose to do the work does a number on them price-wise and quality wise. Of course it is hard to mess up carpet tile, but I just hope they are there Monday Afternoon saying why aren't they done...

thom · 11-28-2007, 08:01 PM

It really sounds like someone else was a better salesman. Back when I did remodel I never took subs to the job. I remodeled restaurants, truck stops, offices, stores, just about everything. No one ever said anything about me not bringing anyone with to hold my hand.

When I've talked to prospects about building custom homes, they don't expect to see my help before they sign.

Someone else got to them after they got all the bids and convinced them to spend more on them. Possibly a friend/relative of the decision maker, possibly not.

Better luck next time.

PrecisionFloors · 11-28-2007, 09:50 PM

No offense so don't take it the wrong way....you need to learn how to sell YOU first. They are buying the confidence they have in your ability to do what you say you are gonna do. I have bid jobs from 20 to 35,000 sf, always by myself. Somewhere in your language, or lack there of, you gave them the idea that you were depending on others more than you were taking responsibility of the job yourself. At least thats my take on it. I did a job a few years ago very similar to what you describe. It was the entire 5th floor of Hampton, VA City Hall. 900 sy with tons of furniture and roll goods rip up. Same scenario, offices had to be up and running Monday morning. I was also one of the lower bids. I took my time to explain each and every step of the process and what my backup plans for in the event of any hardships. Sometimes you have to hold hands and answer the questions that they don't know they should ask in order to gain confidence and respect. I know a lot of guys that just go in, run around with a tape measure and notebook and leave to go home and crunch numbers to get the proposal in only to loose the job to someone more prepared to spend time with the client.

Bill_Vincent · 11-29-2007, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demonseed

It was a job for a medium sized company in Connecticut....

Might this company be in either North Haven or Milford?

(I grew up in the trade in the union in Connecticut, and my sister is Kathy Rafter at Coastal Tile in North Haven) Pretty familiar with No. Haven Tile and BKM, as well.

Demonseed · 11-29-2007, 12:23 AM

There is an X Factor here, I really can't divulge.

The bottom line, was they wanted to see me be bring in other people, it did not matter how well I estimated or sold myself, they needed that comfort zone.

Let me put it this way, I had already been told I had the job, the decision to change was last minute. Trust me, I wish I could go into exact details of what happenned, but I have to have some loyalty to the people that had the decency to tell me the truth.

I can tell you one thing, I may be 'asked' to work on this job anyway, and you know what, I will go in look at the contact guy, and say yeah, these are the same guys I would have brought in and walk out.

I got cut off at the pass on this one.

I appreciate your advice, I really do, but somehow someone convinced them I could not do the job, if you want to know why PM me.

I would have netted close to 5 figures on this after materials and labor, for 16 hours tops....

Demonseed · 11-29-2007, 12:29 AM

Actually it is not in either of those areas, but I did work for BKM almost 20 years ago, when they were on pitkin Street in East Hartford, I used to do some work in North Haven Brophy Ahearn owned some buildings there, some were bought out by Tarragon, but that was more of a courtesy account.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill_Vincent

Might this company be in either North Haven or Milford?

(I grew up in the trade in the union in Connecticut, and my sister is Kathy Rafter at Coastal Tile in North Haven) Pretty familiar with No. Haven Tile and BKM, as well.

Bill_Vincent · 11-29-2007, 01:02 AM

They still have their office in East Hartford. My sister used to work out of their MIlford office, though, which is how I'm familiar with them. No. Haven Tile, on the other hand-- the owner of the place (Bill D'Adamo) used to be an "uncle" to me when I was a kid.

Demonseed · 11-30-2007, 05:18 PM

I lived in east Hartford most of my life, I moved to New Jersey about 18 months ago. We used to pick up material in North haven on occassion, but I do not recall the name of the place, to be honest I miss CT, I am doing well in NJ, but CT it is just an easier State to live in.

Chris G · 11-30-2007, 06:26 PM

I dont know much about carpeting, but I do know the stress it causes to a company that is having it re-done. A company with 100 people in it can be thrown into a complete tailspin for a day or two if everything is not back in order by Monday morning.

When I worked in an office, I had to go through the dreaded new carpet thing a couple of times. Everyone hated having to out all their stuff into crates, label it, have it go missing or end up the wrong office on Monday, and then unpack the crap.

Of all the things that office workers hate, CARPET DAY! is at the top of the list. Whoever has the unlucky job of co-ordinating it all is in for a rough week, no matter what. You underestimated the amount of stress it would cause them, no wonder they wanted more assurance.

Jerry T · 12-01-2007, 02:47 AM

That's what I think too Chris. Sounds like the decision maker's butt was on the line and they went with a sub. who was very good at hand holding.

Floordude · 12-01-2007, 08:56 AM

I don't understand why you would need a third party there with you, during the consulting and bidding process???

You were the low bid, and they have been warned about the low bid, or have been bitten by the low bid, before, even though you would have been able to complete the project with a profit, they don't know that. A list of qualifications, certifications, and an extensive referral list, would have landed you the contract, no matter what your bid was, within reason.

Wolverine-Eric · 12-01-2007, 11:15 PM

I don't hire contractors that don't keep their word. If someone doesn't keep their word during the bidding process... they're sure not going to keep it when it comes time to do the job. We're doing an expansion right now and are using contractors that were NOT the low bid. The other two sets of contractors that were the low bid did not get the job because they said they were going to do ______ and then... didn't. Later, I found out that one of them was notorious for dragging jobs out due to poor planning and cash flow.

Lesson to learn: You can charge more if you are the contractor that always calls when they promise, shows up when they promise (on time), and complete the bid when you promise.

Demonseed · 12-05-2007, 11:44 PM

It has been a couple of days, but I need to express a few things, one, yes they had references, I had done work in at least 4 other offices/buildings within a mile of their facility in the last year without any complaints or problems. Two, at some point the time frame changed dramatically for the completetion of the project, at that time another person took over the decision making process.

Even though the scope of the work had changed during the initial 2 weeks, I had modified and submitted my bid, before the time frame changed. As far as being the low bid, I did not know I was the low bid, until after the fact. In all honesty, I figured I would be near the high end. I did not need anyone else to look at the job on any level, since it was a weekend job with a must complete clause, it did not make a difference, I had to have the Partition guys/furniture guys there no matter what.

The way it is now, aside from paying the other guy more money to begin with, he already has the contract and pushed their time frame back 2 more months, (production dates for the material clause), which in turn is going to mean they have to pay him more, since they had planned on modifications to the area(s) for after the installation, that will now be a part of the install.

Side note, You can't blame the carpet guys for the stuff People box and label and move on their own, come on. Everything we Move Goes BACK to the exact position it was in. We had a General at FT DIX, saying we should run the Base, because we even put a vacumn cleaner back where it was. In most Facilities we are not allowed to move any personel items, in extreme cases, we are not even allowed to move certain items at all.

**Teetorbilt** · 12-06-2007, 12:10 AM

This is late but I agree with Thom, you just got de-horsed by a better salesman.

In a former business, we had a salesman that COST us $2K a month plus his salary, expenses and commissions. $1200 of that was to hotlines. Did we care? Heck no! The guy was cutting big deals for more than we would have ever asked.

He's long gone, we're worth even more now but it shows the value of a salesperson. As a current aside, take full advantage of them. Today it's reciprocative.