engineered flooring problem - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

mrghm · 01-07-2009, 06:03 AM

i have got 8000sqft of white oak engineered flooring on a job.

The boards are 11in wide, hand scraped, limed finsh expensive stuff but the core is made from poplar.

the inner core has a MC of 12% and the outer core has got 7%.

my understanding is the MC or the core should be equal through out the entire core.

The white oak is around 10%.

The boards are bowed out of the box.

I have had the suppiler on site but he does not really care as my cheque for $150k has cleared.

Burby · 01-07-2009, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrghm

i have got 8000sqft of white oak engineered flooring on a job.

The boards are 11in wide, hand scraped, limed finsh expensive stuff but the core is made from poplar.

the inner core has a MC of 12% and the outer core has got 7%.

my understanding is the MC or the core should be equal through out the entire core.

The white oak is around 10%.

The boards are bowed out of the box.

I have had the suppiler on site but he does not really care as my cheque for $150k has cleared.

I have no real answer for you, but an opinion.

First, if the supplier would not offer any explanation of satisfaction, we would have a problem.

$150,000.00 is enough money to get some intelligent & deserved answers.
The supplier can & should have all the answers you need, if not, he has means to contact the manufacturer's Engineering depart to get the needed answers for you.
There has to be some kind of paperwork, online as well as recieved to list the specs, tolerances, expectaions, ect. But again, the supplier should offer you all you need to know and satisfy all questions you have.
If not, you contact the manufacurer directly & go from there.

Hope you get the answers you need, good luck

s. donato · 01-07-2009, 10:50 AM

if your rep is not responsive get your lawyer to draw up some paperwork and i bet someone will be onsite the next day.

150k is not a small amount of money and i wouldn't open or use any of the lumber until you get a better explanation.

11" wide is kinda wide in my opinion - was it supposed to be a glue down? poplar core doesn't sound like a good idea. i would rather see plywood on something that wide - slightly more stable. was the poplar done like a ply layer or just solid piece across the back of the oak.

PrecisionFloors · 01-07-2009, 06:20 PM

How much research did you do on this product prior to dropping $150K on materials? I'd want answers, and I'd want them yesterday. What does your warranty paperwork state......you do have some right?

mrghm · 01-08-2009, 04:15 AM

We are in sydney Australaia, this job is at bondi beach in very expesive multi storery apartments.

the product is made in china, its a poplar core with white oak veener. the core is plywood.

the designer selected the flooring from a supplier which is based in a differnt state.

we ordered timber at quoted rate and when it was delivered paid for it, the GC then issued us a cheque less the retion.

the suppiler came to site and did an inspection he now excepts that it is not a site issue but feels the timber can still be used even through the boards are bowed.

the GC has agreed to pay extra to have the floor trowel glued with polyurthane adhsive.

we are now trying to get a letter from the suppiler saying that he will cover all expensies if anything at all goes wrong.

THe GC is also not happy at the supplier.

jamestrd · 01-08-2009, 08:10 AM

19.00 a sf for this material?

that sound pretty damn high even for 11 inch..

I have paid 12-14 for solid plank walnut

thisi is damn high for an engineered product.

Im thinking the boards weill twist after they start to dry out...

PrecisionFloors · 01-08-2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrghm

We are in sydney Australaia, this job is at bondi beach in very expesive multi storery apartments.

the product is made in china, its a poplar core with white oak veener. the core is plywood.

the designer selected the flooring from a supplier which is based in a differnt state.

we ordered timber at quoted rate and when it was delivered paid for it, the GC then issued us a cheque less the retion.

the suppiler came to site and did an inspection he now excepts that it is not a site issue but feels the timber can still be used even through the boards are bowed.

the GC has agreed to pay extra to have the floor trowel glued with polyurthane adhsive.

we are now trying to get a letter from the suppiler saying that he will cover all expensies if anything at all goes wrong.

THe GC is also not happy at the supplier.

RUN! Do not walk.

How much experience do you have with glue down hardwood floors? 11" wide perfectly straight plank would be an absolute nightmare, much less bowed material!!
What adhesive have they specified?

Bud Cline · 01-08-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

mrghm

We are in sydney Australaia, this job is at bondi beach in very expesive multi storery apartments. the product is made in china, its a poplar core with white oak veener. the core is plywood.

Now which is it?

s. donato · 01-08-2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Cline

Now which is it?

i am guessing a "plywoodish product" made from poplar

mrghm · 01-09-2009, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrecisionFloors

RUN! Do not walk.

How much experience do you have with glue down hardwood floors? 11" wide perfectly straight plank would be an absolute nightmare, much less bowed material!!
What adhesive have they specified?

over here glue down as you guys call it we call it direct stuck is done all the time.

We screw down strips of timber to the slab then wedge the boards over.

I agree that it is prick if the boards are not dead stright.

we use a polyurthane adhesive it is called bostick ultraset, or sika T55.

The supplier is going to sign a warranty form from us saying they cover everything for this job in the event of failure.

I have told my guys open the boxes up anything that is bowed dont use, i am then going to request that the suppiler replace the boards.

astor · 01-09-2009, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrghm

over here glue down as you guys call it we call it direct stuck is done all the time.

We screw down strips of timber to the slab then wedge the boards over.

I agree that it is prick if the boards are not dead stright.

we use a polyurthane adhesive it is called bostick ultraset, or sika T55.

The supplier is going to sign a warranty form from us saying they cover everything for this job in the event of failure.

I have told my guys open the boxes up anything that is bowed dont use, i am then going to request that the suppiler replace the boards.

what ever is that, you could have get any Italian floor manufacturers do custom flooring for that price $18.75 per sq.ft. incld.shipping to there.
Even the supplier warrants,I will not risk my reputation, risk strain relationship with the client. SHIP IT BACK....
Anyway here are a few links in case you need it next time!!

berti (dot) net
anticocadore (dot) it ---wide boards up to 15"--

mrghm · 01-09-2009, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astor

what ever is that, you could have get any Italian floor manufacturers do custom flooring for that price $18.75 per sq.ft. incld.shipping to there.
Even the supplier warrants,I will not risk my reputation, risk strain relationship with the client. SHIP IT BACK....
Anyway here are a few links in case you need it next time!!

berti (dot) net
anticocadore (dot) it ---wide boards up to 15"--

The stuff is junk, but they would not use or alternatives we offered.

its easy to say walk away but i have a contract with the builder and will face large pentailites if we walk.

thats why i am trying to get all the warranlty passed back onto the suppiler.

astor · 01-09-2009, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrghm

The stuff is junk, but they would not use or alternatives we offered.

OK whoever forces to use that product has to sign the waiver...

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrghm

its easy to say walk away but i have a contract with the builder and will face large pentailites if we walk.

I never suggest to walk away, just protect your a...

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrghm

hats why i am trying to get all the warranlty passed back onto the suppiler.

supplier will duck somewhere in the future and that will hunt you no matter

Get the waiver signed asap...

astor · 01-09-2009, 02:00 AM

If you can not get anyone to sign a waiver, then notify them with the problems via attorney asap. All the info points a huge problem..the supplier does not want to take lost by replacement of the materials.He is gambling big...MC in the inner core will pass to outer core and and that floor will be done again in very near future.
There is no product unreplaceable..there are always alternatives...someone, somehere, makes same product..

jamestrd · 01-09-2009, 08:04 AM

no one can make you installa defective product..I dont care how good their contract is..

i've neevr heard of a floor guy going into penalty..thats soemthing that will happen between a GC and Owner...

They guy woud lose his shirt if he tried to sue you over.

my feeling is you are at no loss as the materials are paid and you have not done any labor.

If you made a mark on the material and it is sold under you,then you are liable for supplying faulty material.. if they paid directly, you have no worries.

Sure,i understand your determinatyion to resolve it, but to knowingly risk installing something that is not right will fall on you after the fact..

My guess is you will have a nightmare installing o this product, Bowed 11" boards, being knocked together over a bed of adhesive nonetheless, will prove more than a challenge...

good luck with that one

Jerry T · 01-12-2009, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrghm

i have got 8000sqft of white oak engineered flooring on a job.

The boards are 11in wide, hand scraped, limed finsh expensive stuff but the core is made from poplar.

the inner core has a MC of 12% and the outer core has got 7%.

my understanding is the MC or the core should be equal through out the entire core.

The white oak is around 10%.

The boards are bowed out of the box.

I have had the suppiler on site but he does not really care as my cheque for $150k has cleared.

There is no way I am aware of to get an accurate reading on engineered products because you have different species that need to be corrected and also the glue messes everything up. Doing an oven test is the only way I've heard of to get an accurate reading, same as with bamboo products.

I would call the folks who made your moisture meter and let them tell you how to check all this.

It may take an extreme amount of time for this wide product to acclimate correctly.

Tim D · 01-17-2009, 07:24 PM

Ok, first how did you measure the moisture? Did you use a conversion chart for the different species of wood? Doubtful, this will give you a bad reading.
I know on my meter that Oak and Poplar use different settings

mrghm · 01-17-2009, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim D

Ok, first how did you measure the moisture? Did you use a conversion chart for the different species of wood? Doubtful, this will give you a bad reading.
I know on my meter that Oak and Poplar use different settings

my meter reads for doug fir, then i adjust readings using table.

Tim D · 01-17-2009, 07:52 PM

Ok, thanks, you did the conversion.
So how is the job progressing?

mrghm · 01-18-2009, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim D

Ok, thanks, you did the conversion.
So how is the job progressing?

the job is on hold for now,

the apartmnet we have completed looks like being re done, with new material and full trowel glueing to stop the lifting.

see a photo of a typical board.

the suppiler has sent me a email but did not CC the super or the GC asking me not reject boards as he does not have any more to replace them with.