Dura-Ceramic by Congoleum - Any experience with? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Tileworks · 02-25-2006, 08:57 AM

Hey everyone,

A retail store referred a job to me. Upon close examination of the paperwork, this is a product called Dura-Ceramic, which is a new product by Congoleum that sets like a vinyl tile, and has optional grout (although this job isn't to be installed with the grout).

I'm scheduled to do the measure tomorrow. Store sold Fiberock as underlayment, and some kind of adhesive.

I've never done vinyl tile. However, people say that if I can set ceramic, porcelain, marble, and stone... that I should be able to do _most_ other types of flooring with no trouble.

So what is the procedure in laying this type of floor?

That's what I need to know, before deciding to flip this over to someone who really knows what he is doing.

- Bob
__________________
Classic Tileworks
http://www.classictileworks.com/

R&D Tile · 02-25-2006, 05:01 PM

If it's anything like that Edge Tile crap that was sold at Lowes, I wouldn't get involved, if it fails your to blame, stick with what you know.

Bud Cline · 02-25-2006, 06:38 PM

Bob you have a PM.

painterman · 02-25-2006, 07:18 PM

Bob,

I have installed this tile. I am by no means a tile setter. This is a very good product that is very easy to use.The glue they supply is very much like contact cement. Once the tile hits it,no second chances to reset it. Doing a" dry run" is very smart way to do it.No real tricks just have to think ahead a little ways.Really no different than any other tile job.

Stan

painterman · 02-25-2006, 08:27 PM

Bob,
Forgot to mention. This job will go very slowly. You have to do small sections at a time. Glue has to set up before you can lay the tiles. It wll change colour when it is ready 30 mins or so.

stan

PrecisionFloors · 02-25-2006, 10:47 PM

I have installed at least 5000sf of this product in the last 14 months or so. Outstanding product imo. Subfloor must be flat! Do not grout like ceramic, grout hazes quicker and is a b!tch to get cleaned if you get too far ahead of yourself. EVERY customer I have had with this product had loved it and have sent me more business.

PrecisionFloors · 02-25-2006, 10:48 PM

painterman, what do you consider slowly? Compared to any other grouted pruduct install it is very quick. I average 350sf complete in a residential setting a day. At an average of 3.00 a foot I feel like it's good money.

gutrman · 01-30-2007, 10:06 PM

Would this be something a gutter man could install? My father and I are relatively handy and are looking to install this in a kitchen and sunroom at my personal residence. I plan to lay luan down before installing dura-ceramic. Is this on the right path?? Any further suggestions for me?

Thanks,
GutterFool

turner flooring · 02-04-2007, 03:27 PM

That material is basically a vinyl floor, with the look of ceramic. The materials goes in like a vct installation. We install this all the time. Lay it out first get a chalkline on the floor and keep it straight.

J DoubleD FLoor · 02-04-2007, 11:37 PM

I will agree with the fact that it installs like VCT, But basically vinyl floor ... nope ... It has the best of both worlds .... simple install ... looks like tile ... grouts like tile ... has a limestone composite core ... isn't cold like tile ... ooo did i say simple install?

PrecisionFloors · 02-05-2007, 07:57 AM

The only things a Duraceramic and a VCT install have in common is they both use a clearset adhesive and the tiles are square. With that mindset, you will be paid like a VCT install as well.

PrecisionFloors · 02-05-2007, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gutrman

Would this be something a gutter man could install? My father and I are relatively handy and are looking to install this in a kitchen and sunroom at my personal residence. I plan to lay luan down before installing dura-ceramic. Is this on the right path?? Any further suggestions for me?

Thanks,
GutterFool

You can use luan as an underlayment but the only warranty you will have is whatever the luan manufacturer offers. Which is usually just a material replacement for defective boards. I use Halex or Mulitply underlayments as they are a much better product that is also fully warranted by Congoleum.

turner flooring · 02-18-2007, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrecisionFloors

The only things a Duraceramic and a VCT install have in common is they both use a clearset adhesive and the tiles are square. With that mindset, you will be paid like a VCT install as well.

Funny how it went to money from all that. With my background experience in the flooring industry most all flooring applications are easy. As far as pricing I'll never guess how you figured out how much the job pays from what I typed in. But that's how all flooring guys are that install a few products and not all flooring. When we diagnose every single material that comes out on the market literally, we spend less time installing. Worse it could be that the materials you know so much about have been removed from the market. I've seen it time and time again floor installers that think flooring is such a hard thing to master. So they aren't open for all the new things that are already on the market that they just learned about. When other floor installers elsewhere install those materials on a daily basis already. Not learning it installing it. And installing the next material as well what's new to everybody else later on down the line. When you do large business with large shops in large volume. You learn installations of many types of new flooring far before others ever even know it's on the market. Not to be harsh but the pricing on any-job is all your own choice. We should learn that from the start. However hard it is for you, it may not be that hard for other companies to take your over skilled job away from you. Remember competition is not just in the flooring application it's in pricing and how cheap your competitors get. Stick with what you know and learn everything you can. And I promise you'll never know everything in this flooring business nor will I, because it all changes.

turner flooring · 02-18-2007, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J DoubleD FLoor

I will agree with the fact that it installs like VCT, But basically vinyl floor ... nope ... It has the best of both worlds .... simple install ... looks like tile ... grouts like tile ... has a limestone composite core ... isn't cold like tile ... ooo did i say simple install?

Again breaking down the product to it''s composites were not what I was trying to help with. Telling someone that it's an easy install was the message. If you've done v.c.t. installs this floor is really close. If it's not then, I'm wondering why it has the same Adhesive types,a need for a vinyl roller that you use on v.c.t., cuts with a utility knife the same as vct, and you can use a heatgun to help roll the edges down after you cut it, just like you heat up vct and vinyl. Sounds the same to me. OH I know it's the grout part that's so difficullt for everybody. Leave a space in the vinyl like ceramic when you put it on the floor . And use the pre-mixed grout and clean it up just like you would a ceramic floor. Or just caulk(seal) the spaces with the caulk(sealer) of choice from the manufacturer. The same as v.c.t on installing except for leaving a grout joint. And basic grout method next(done). Actually using the caulk (sealer)method would boil it down to installing a vct like floor and leaving a grout space or finish by (sealing)caulking the gaps in the material. Sounds like a pretty close comparison to vct. Maybe i'm getting to old for this it's that all flooring is almost the same applications with just different materials and instructions. Basically, If you can teach guys who can't think for themselves how to install floors. Then a guy who owns his own company can figure this out on his own. It is easy..

Taurus Flooring · 02-18-2007, 07:47 PM

Basically, it is the same as VCT, the only difference is that it is not as flexible and will not conform like VCT. For difficult cuts, you can heat it up with a heat gun and make your cut. When installing it with grout, use a scouring pad to clean up the excessive grout, works great. Make sure you do small areas at a time. A square sponge will help to leave the right amount on the floor and not in your bucket.

PrecisionFloors · 02-18-2007, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turner flooring

Sounds the same to me. OH I know it's the grout part that's so difficullt for everybody. Leave a space in the vinyl like ceramic when you put it on the floor .

Huh? What? Caulking? Have you ever installed this product before or are you talking out of your ass? No where in Congoleums literature does it state to use caulking.

Everything is easy until you screw it up. Do it right or don't do it. Its that simple.

turner flooring · 02-18-2007, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrecisionFloors

Huh? What? Caulking? Have you ever installed this product before or are you talking out of your ass? No where in Congoleums literature does it state to use caulking.

Everything is easy until you screw it up. Do it right or don't do it. Its that simple.

SINCE YOUR RUDE AND A KNOW IT ALL.. I figured I would tell you that you were right. I should have used the word sealer instead of caulk. On a vinyl floor the two words are almost the same in my book. My mistake.
Congoleum has a new set of options you probably know nothing about. So i'll list the website where you can watch a video and see what i'm talking about. The sealer is ds-200. Used with the tiles completely installed together and the sealer goes between the gap like a grout would; but in a tighter joint. Of course it's something new. And i'm sure you know everything about it already. So i'll send the video to you here at this site. Again new products you really knew nothing about until they reached your front door. Go figure and watch the video. And hold your horses with the cussing from one who knows to one who will learn something today.

visit : http://www.becklerscarpet.com/vinylt...586&manu_id=51

Directly at it so you can watch the video and learn your trade. Or just something different in your trade. I'm talking from experience outa my

PrecisionFloors · 02-19-2007, 08:19 AM

Its not such a "new" product to me. I have been installing it since it first came out....which is about three years now. I don't need a link to someones website to show me Congoleums install procedures....I keep a tech manual in my truck for reference. I'm sorry you feel offended by someone setting you straight. Thats the third time you have given blatantly wrong information, that if used by a fellow professional on this board, would have resulted in a disaster. I respect my fellow professionals more than that. If I don't know something, I don't act like I do and risk misinforming people who make a living doing this thing. I would take that as RUDE. If you thing seam sealer and caulking are the same thing on a vinyl installation, next time use the terminology accepted by the entire industry it will eliminate any confusion. I have known of several hacks in my day that used caulking to "take care of" gaps in a vinyl seam so thats what it sounded like to me. Like I said before Do it Right, or don't do it at all. You seem to think there is a large grey area. There isn't. If flooring is so easy to you then it should be no problem whatsoever for you to do it right.

By the way the options you are reffering to....yeah I know about em. I'm installing two bathrooms of it this morning as a matter of fact. All it amounts to is a smaller format tile. They are also being used on backsplashes now.

**Floorwizard** · 02-19-2007, 12:23 PM

I think we can all agree to stick with Manufacturer recommendations on install.

turner flooring · 02-19-2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrecisionFloors

Its not such a "new" product to me. I have been installing it since it first came out....which is about three years now. I don't need a link to someones website to show me Congoleums install procedures....I keep a tech manual in my truck for reference. I'm sorry you feel offended by someone setting you straight. Thats the third time you have given blatantly wrong information, that if used by a fellow professional on this board, would have resulted in a disaster. I respect my fellow professionals more than that. If I don't know something, I don't act like I do and risk misinforming people who make a living doing this thing. I would take that as RUDE. If you thing seam sealer and caulking are the same thing on a vinyl installation, next time use the terminology accepted by the entire industry it will eliminate any confusion. I have known of several hacks in my day that used caulking to "take care of" gaps in a vinyl seam so thats what it sounded like to me. Like I said before Do it Right, or don't do it at all. You seem to think there is a large grey area. There isn't. If flooring is so easy to you then it should be no problem whatsoever for you to do it right.

By the way the options you are reffering to....yeah I know about em. I'm installing two bathrooms of it this morning as a matter of fact. All it amounts to is a smaller format tile. They are also being used on backsplashes now.

Armstongs follow up version of other materials is not new to the business. Amtico and forbo, Armstrong has it's versions of the two. Amtico has had ceramic vinyl look w/ or w/ out grout long ago. Ive installed it many years before three ago.. Same types of products with different traits or exacts. It's all an industry of comparison and trials with products. Amtico you don't use real grout, it's a stick of vinyl you add in place for the grout. WE BOTH CAN LEARN FROM THIS BACK AND FORTH GAME. That more education for both of us would be best. For instance, I had one of my new guys install base at an AIRFORCE BASE 6 MTHS AGO. tHE SALES MAN WENT TO THE JOB AND my new guy, PULLED OUT A HEATGUN TO INSTALL BASE. SALES CALLED ME, REQUESTED I FIRE HIM. You don't need a heatgun or contact cement to do base installations. Commercial and residential. There is a difference. Residential guys dont know as much as they think they do, on the commercial side of business. The commercial side is where the testing of installations begin to take place with most new products.
Long before some ever even hear about it. But as far as watching the video, i knew you would say that. I and my guys have to take classes all the time, it's required here. Or we don't get the jobs with certain materials. I don't like it either but I learn something every time and that's the part of learning we should all have to accept. I'm sure you learned from one or two or three guys over the years. We have crews of 100+ around here. And many of them jump from crew to crew. So i've seen stubborn guys like yoursellf all the time. To good to watch something they already know. Most of those guys don't run the large jobs. First they quit..and They get a helper and install houses. Take care I'm done with back and forth with you. I fire and hire you all the time. Not to be cutting you up like a hack or something we would probably teach each other many things in this business if we worked together on the same job. I don''t want to be your boss. I'm not trying to take your job so chill out. Hope to get this all back on track. if you did watch the video it would be real hard to admit it now. I did just to make sure i was right before I criticize you. And admitting your wrong is hard. And i was wrong with some of your much needed terminology. Caulk is a sealer. Different words for different days. I''M OLD SCHOOL. bUT I APLOLOGIZE IF I OFFENDED YOU. AND THAT'S BEING REAL..

point.