Customer wants refund - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Larman · 10-01-2007, 11:51 AM

Hello,

I am a painter by trade and I have a gentleman working for me (painting) who has done ceramic tile for years. He has done this without a license and insurance. He did a job over a year ago and there were problems with cracking tiles and grout. Not to bore you with the specific details of what he did or didn't do wrong. My question is what is his reasponsibilty here. The customer bought the tile and materials he did the labor. He collected $1600 for his labor. He would like to do the right thing and pay these people back. Does he pay back his labor cost or the entire job cost of $4500 Thanks for your quick replies.

Celtic · 10-01-2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larman

My question is what is his reasponsibilty here

None...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larman

I have a gentleman working for me (painting) ....
He did a job over a year ago and there were problems with cracking tiles and grout.

YOU have the responsibility/liability as the contractor.
What if this fellow you hired only did one job and it failed after you guys parted ways?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larman

The customer bought the tile and materials he did the labor. He collected $1600 for his labor. He would like to do the right thing and pay these people back. Does he pay back his labor cost or the entire job cost of $4500

That's a tough call ...
$1600 for labor
$2900 for materials
$ xxxx for the demo
$ xxxx for any other trades involved

He must feel a lot of guilt to be considering returning the money.

How does one "who has done ceramic tile for years", suddenly become a painter?

This does not add up.

send_it_all · 10-01-2007, 12:31 PM

Did he do the job under your license or business name, or was this a COMPLETELY seperate deal between him and the homeowner?

I'm going to guess that this job was done on a floor with inadequate support...(joists too small or thin subfloor)...He probably should have known to check for this condition.

IMO, the right thing to do would be to refund the amount of labor and materials, because it's due to an improper installation that the tiles are cracking. Unless he wants to salvage and clean as many tiles as possible and correct the bad condition before re doing job at his own cost.

Demonseed · 10-01-2007, 02:42 PM

I am assuming there is no way to salvage the job, by replacing cracked tiles and regrouting it. If the cause of the failure was entirely his fault, he should really pay to have the floor redone. If it is a case were the people will accept a refund and live with the floor, then I would go that route.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larman

Hello,

I am a painter by trade and I have a gentleman working for me (painting) who has done ceramic tile for years. He has done this without a license and insurance. He did a job over a year ago and there were problems with cracking tiles and grout. Not to bore you with the specific details of what he did or didn't do wrong. My question is what is his reasponsibilty here. The customer bought the tile and materials he did the labor. He collected $1600 for his labor. He would like to do the right thing and pay these people back. Does he pay back his labor cost or the entire job cost of $4500 Thanks for your quick replies.

Shooter · 10-01-2007, 04:32 PM

If he had no License and Insurance, this would fall under the H.O. fault for not hiring a License Contractor to do the job. I do not have any feelings for a H.O. that pulls this sh!t.

There was probably no permit for this work either, some states require and some don't for a floor permit. So none of the above, makes the H.O. look like a moron in the court of law.

I have seen Judges throw out cases such as this, because of the nickel pinching H.O.. The unlicensed contractor walks away without a slap on the wrist, to be able to do it again.

PrecisionFloors · 10-01-2007, 05:29 PM

Did he have a contract? How long was his workmanship guarantee, in writing or verbal?

Mike Costello · 10-01-2007, 05:35 PM

Anyone who would hire the pool boy to fix thier car , has no room to cry when they break down in the desert.

Shame on the dude for being an imposter and not a pro. You kind of assume the role of pro when you take money for performing a trade.
The ethical thing to do would be at the very least, return the money he was paid for the job.Chalk it up to a lesson ....Dont take on work you either dont know or dont care enough about to do correctly.

Maybe it would be just for the homeowner to eat the material for a new floor for looking to the painter to have tile installed. ( Not knockin painters at all).Installing tile is a very skilled trade.
I guess its a good thing this homeowner didnt need a propane tank installed

Bill · 10-01-2007, 05:39 PM

Here in VA DPOR is clamping down on this sort of thing. Anyone who preforms work for a fixed price regardless of dollar amount or if home owner is furnishing all materials, or gets paid with a 1099 is considered to be contracting under VA law and therefore MUST have a valid VA contractors license. And no contractor shall preform any work by contract or by time and material, or by the hour without the proper endorsements on their license (Plumbing, electrical, or HVAC)

Mike Costello · 10-01-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abp

And no contractor shall preform any work by contract or by time and material, or by the hour without the proper endorsements on their license (Plumbing, electrical, or HVAC)

Sounds like somethin the tax man came up with

Floordude · 10-01-2007, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abp

no contractor shall preform any work by contract or by time and material, or by the hour

Dang, that means they can't work at all, and everyone is employed by god.

I don't buy it. As a contractor, you have the right to charge how ever you like, as long as there is a CONTRACT. That is why it is called "contracting" and not "working"

Quote:

I am a painter by trade and I have a gentleman working for me (painting) who has done ceramic tile for years. He has done this without a license and insurance. He did a job over a year ago and there were problems with cracking tiles and grout. Not to bore you with the specific details of what he did or didn't do wrong. My question is what is his reasponsibilty here. The customer bought the tile and materials he did the labor. He collected $1600 for his labor. He would like to do the right thing and pay these people back. Does he pay back his labor cost or the entire job cost of $4500 Thanks for your quick replies.

It sounds like your asking, because you contracted this tile job, and hired your unlicensed buddy to do it cheap, so you could undercut the competition, bidding on the complete package the client wanted. You feared losing the bid, if you couldn't also do the tile.

Because of the failure, and lack of knowledge, the client has the right to be made whole again. Meaning, all cost involved to make it right and to industry standard, as was contracted for. Now fork out the labor to remove the mess, the tiles and setting materials, the extra plywood and blocking to reinforce the substrate(the whole problem in the first place) and the labor to set & grout the new tiles, and any associated cost with trim and painting.

Now, if you can fast talk yourself to a better deal, get it in writing, as a contract!! Because a judge will award them everything I described

mahlere · 10-01-2007, 06:53 PM

Floordude, you have to actually read the entire sentence....

Quote:

Originally Posted by abp

And no contractor shall preform any work by contract or by time and material, or by the hour without the proper endorsements on their license (Plumbing, electrical, or HVAC)

it helps keep the feet out of the mouth....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floordude

Dang, that means they can't work at all, and everyone is employed by god.

I don't buy it. As a contractor, you have the right to charge how ever you like, as long as there is a CONTRACT. That is why it is called "contracting" and not "working"

Bill · 10-01-2007, 07:13 PM

I'm saying that here in VA when one contracts work, he/she is acting as a contractor, therefore they need to be licensed. beleive me, it helps keep out the illegles

Chris Johnson · 10-01-2007, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abp

beleive me, it helps keep out the illegles

California tries the same thing

send_it_all · 10-01-2007, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Johnson

California tries the same thing

It works great, doesn't it Chris?...NOT

Forry · 10-01-2007, 08:24 PM

No refund. The correct course of action is to hire a licensed contractor to fix the problem, ie. doing it all over. Mind you, I wouldn't want to be the guy in that position, but that's what has to happen. In my state we have to carry a performance bond to pay someone else to fix it if we we screw up.

Floordude · 10-01-2007, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahlere

Floordude, you have to actually read the entire sentence....

it helps keep the feet out of the mouth....

I did read the entire sentence... but the first I read... "no contractor shall preform any work by contract". Now read that 5 times fast.

I was making a funny, because I could "almost" see the other variables mentioned, tried.
But that is a violation/contradiction of business laws as they are/were written.
That is control, and communistic. Dictating how someone, charges/profits, from/for, their services. If it is infact put into law, it could very easily be overturned. I bet unions and collective barganing was not involved!! or it would not have gone anywhere. Must have been a hush-hush, closed door vote.

I'm all for licensing, but licensing, should have nothing to do with how you charge for your worth to your client. That is what a contract is for.

Celtic · 10-01-2007, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abp

And no contractor shall preform any work by contract or by time and material, or by the hour without the proper endorsements on their license (Plumbing, electrical, or HVAC)

It's common knowledge that I'll barter my trade for pie

Would that be legal over there?

Glasshousebltr · 10-01-2007, 11:58 PM

First off ......any floor guy thats ever had ceramic crack can tell ya it's not always the install ......older wood structures will move .......so I'd find out exactly what the issue is ......he might have a foundation problem ......something the every day floor guy couldn't be expected to catch.

Second off ........if it was a bad install ......your floor buddy should ether fix it or pay for it.

Last but not least ........A contractor is a contractor in my book .....no matter the license .......the education .......the permits .......or what have ya ........They'd all be unnecessary if we stick to our word and keep quality out front.

As you can tell I'm not a fan of Government regulation ......any kind.

Larman · 10-02-2007, 10:27 AM

Wow, thanks for all the replies. Like I said the guy is trying to do the right thing here. Im just trying to guide him in the right direction. He has decided to refund there money. He did this job over a year ago and does not want this to come back to haunt him.

HJ1 · 10-02-2007, 12:43 PM

Quote:

I am a painter by trade and I have a gentleman working for me (painting) who has done ceramic tile for years. He has done this without a license and insurance.

Larman

It sounds like this unlicensed uninsured "gentlemen" was working for you as an employee. Did you make any money from this faulty tile installation? If you had the contract with the HO perhaps this guy just worked for you and you paid him to do the work. Perhaps it was your responsibility to make sure the work got done to standards and if you didnt know what the standards were then you should pay up.