Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum

 
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:24 PM   #1
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Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


When installing tile over vinyl the thinsets recommend sanding the floor and not to sand if it is made with asbestos. How do you know if it has asbestos? Is it in vinyl or linoleum or both? Also, what is the difference in vinyl and linoleum or are they the same thing just different names?

thank you,
Matthew

Last edited by rselectric1; 02-18-2011 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 02-18-2011, 05:41 PM   #2
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


Usually the whole idea behind installing over vinyl is because you don't want to remove it or disturb it because of asbestos. I don't know if sanding it would disturb the asbestos in the backing of some residential sheet vinyl products however. Even in the mid 90's when I got started in the flooring business there were some vinyl products in circulation that had asbestos.

If you have a wood underlayment you could simply install Hardibacker board on top of the vinyl and have a nice clean and prepared substrate to install on to. Sometimes due to height restrictions this is problematic, so if this was the case I would remove and replace the underlayment. You could avoid ripping up the vinyl that much this way, as you are just removing the underlay.

If the subfloor is concrete you can take a small sample ( 2" x 2" is enough for most labs), and have it tested by an asbestos abatement company. It isn't too expensive. If it doesn't have asbestos than you can tear it up as per normal.

Linoleum is different from vinyl: Linoleum is a mixture of heated linseed oil, rosin, powdered cork, and pigments with a burlap or canvas backing. usually solid colors or a marbeled look. You wouldn't mistake it for vinyl if you saw it. You probably have vinyl which is much more common and is simply vinyl with a felt back with a urethane type wear layer. Modern patterns are almost exclusively tile or wood. So if it has a stone look to it or something like that it probably doesn't have asbestos.

Hope this helps.

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Old 02-18-2011, 09:51 PM   #3
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


The black (cutback) adhesive had more asbestos than the vinyl. Even tho they quit making flooring in 1978 with asbestos, they sold remaing stock probably into the mid 1990's. If you have to scrape up cutback, keep it misted with water. You have to keep from making dust.
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:59 AM   #4
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


Quote:
Originally Posted by rusty baker
The black (cutback) adhesive had more asbestos than the vinyl. Even tho they quit making flooring in 1978 with asbestos, they sold remaing stock probably into the mid 1990's. If you have to scrape up cutback, keep it misted with water. You have to keep from making dust.
If your test comes up asbestos positive, FARM IT OUT to a certified removal company. A lot of people don't care and blah blah blah but, our shop doesn't touch it for liability reasons......yer choice
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Old 02-19-2011, 11:41 AM   #5
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


so what do you guys do with a vinyl tearout over concrete? do you test every tear out? I mean if people were using asbestos filled adhesive until the mid 90's than almost any vinyl could have asbestos somewhere in th installtion process
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:22 PM   #6
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebird5
so what do you guys do with a vinyl tearout over concrete? do you test every tear out? I mean if people were using asbestos filled adhesive until the mid 90's than almost any vinyl could have asbestos somewhere in th installtion process
Didn't mean to stomp on yer point .....srictly old tile that was stopped in the late fiftys early sixties....not the adhesive part...thee technique u stated was the way we were shown by this company to scrape adhesive.... If its an eight inch VAT then we have it tested as long as the building falls within the same time period as asbestos was still being used...not a deadly dose, but we FARM IT every time...
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:27 PM   #7
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


Quote:
Originally Posted by Groutface

Didn't mean to stomp on yer point .....srictly old tile that was stopped in the late fiftys early sixties....not the adhesive part...thee technique u stated was the way we were shown by this company to scrape adhesive.... If its an eight inch VAT then we have it tested as long as the building falls within the same time period as asbestos was still being used...not a deadly dose, but we FARM IT every time...
On another note not to discredit your source,our removal company told us that the last dose of asbestos was put into adhesives for vinyl in 1983-1984 .
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:48 PM   #8
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


Quote:
Originally Posted by Groutface View Post
On another note not to discredit your source,our removal company told us that the last dose of asbestos was put into adhesives for vinyl in 1983-1984 .
They were allowed to sell all existing stock, and it's estimated that it took 10 years or more to sell it all.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:56 PM   #9
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


Quote:
Originally Posted by Groutface View Post
Didn't mean to stomp on yer point .....srictly old tile that was stopped in the late fiftys early sixties....not the adhesive part...thee technique u stated was the way we were shown by this company to scrape adhesive.... If its an eight inch VAT then we have it tested as long as the building falls within the same time period as asbestos was still being used...not a deadly dose, but we FARM IT every time...
I have been told that 9 X 9 tile is always asbestos. There is plenty of 12 X 12 that has asbestos too. We used to install it in commercial buildings back in the 70's. It was actually a much better product, much stiffer and would span minor imperfections in a slab. You can see every trowel mark through the VCT we install these days.
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:49 PM   #10
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


Quote:
Originally Posted by rusty baker View Post
The black (cutback) adhesive had more asbestos than the vinyl. Even tho they quit making flooring in 1978 with asbestos, they sold remaing stock probably into the mid 1990's. If you have to scrape up cutback, keep it misted with water. You have to keep from making dust.
****************************

I recently found this link related to asbestos in the flooring industry
http://www.pic.int/en/DGDs/Alternati...20part%203.pdf

Kentile was still using asbestos in the tile in 1986
Amtico----1985
Congoleum --1984
Armstrong --1983
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Old 02-19-2011, 08:00 PM   #11
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


Good find. I remember reading somewhere that the flooring industry actually won the lawsuit that was trying to shut down the production of VAT. Can't find it now, though.
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:00 PM   #12
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


Quote:
Originally Posted by BKM Resilient
****************************

I recently found this link related to asbestos in the flooring industry
http://www.pic.int/en/DGDs/Alternati...20part%203.pdf

Kentile was still using asbestos in the tile in 1986
Amtico----1985
Congoleum --1984
Armstrong --1983
Well once again taking someone elses word for it doesn't pay off. US banned asbestos in 1989 and CANADA followed suit shortly there after my sources were wrong....just checked out CBC archives for the info......good one......thumbsup!
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:00 PM   #13
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


Quote:
Originally Posted by BKM Resilient View Post
****************************

I recently found this link related to asbestos in the flooring industry
http://www.pic.int/en/DGDs/Alternati...20part%203.pdf

Kentile was still using asbestos in the tile in 1986
Amtico----1985
Congoleum --1984
Armstrong --1983
Very informative, thanks for posting that link. Confirms what I said earlier about stability etc. of VAT over VCT.
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Old 02-19-2011, 11:12 PM   #14
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:13 PM   #15
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Re: Asbestos In Vinyl Or Linoleum


Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebird5 View Post
When installing tile over vinyl the thinsets recommend sanding the floor and not to sand if it is made with asbestos. How do you know if it has asbestos? Is it in vinyl or linoleum or both? Also, what is the difference in vinyl and linoleum or are they the same thing just different names?

thank you,
Matthew
*************************
Now back to the original question.

First choice is always to remove any existing floor and start again with clean, dry, solid concrete. But that's not necessarily going to happen in the real world of time and money issues. So you need to know if it's asbestos. As has been recommended you cut a small sample and have it tested. If it's not asbestos and it's in a sheet you need to determine if it's an "embossed" vinyl. So you need an experienced opinion. I wouldn't consider laying tile (ceramic, LVT or VCT) over real linoleum or embossed vinyl. Surfaces that might be OK to lay over in extreme cases are really only solid VCT or likewise really solid vinyl Corlon-type products. Both of these are somewhat porous so you can get a decent bond and dense enough to serve as underlayment. There can't be any wax or finish on the surface. Where there's no asbestos go ahead and sand it. If it is asbestos you'll have to strip off the finish. At least get an estimate for professional asbestos abatement. Maybe it's not as expensive as you think and you'll get down to the bare concrete at least.


There are situations where it's too expensive or disruptive to do the demolition/abatement. Primarily I'm referring to commercial and institutional settings where tearing out and preparing the floor would be cost prohibitive or not feasible in the time frame allowed because of operational constraints.

If this is a house and there's no asbestos-------bite the bullet and get it all out of there including all the patch and adhesive residue. That's usually not too hard but in some significant cases it requires heavy duty equipment. If it's down so solid you can't get more than a few square inches up with all your tools, equipment and effort. Then, and only then is it worth considering laying overtop.


Last edited by BKM Resilient; 02-20-2011 at 12:18 PM.
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