Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-13-2008, 11:42 AM   #1
Doer of Many Things!!!
 
gideond's Avatar
 
Trade: Paint and Floor Covering Retailer
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Staunton, VA
Posts: 767

Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


We recently did two separate jobs with two different patterns of Armstrong Possibilities commercial sheet vinyl. We used the Seam Sealer method instead of heat welding, which is suppose to be fine with this product. A couple of months later both jobs are showing gaps at the seams as though the vinyl itself has shrunk. They aren't large gaps but they are big enough to notice. None are larger than 1/16" but they are a magnet for dirt which makes them very obvious. We went over both jobs with our installers (two different crews) and found no problems with the installation. It was all done per Armstrong's instructions. I've got a call in to our sales rep who will come to look at it next week but I'm looking for a little input from anyone else who has used this product who may have had similar issues.
gideond is offline  

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

   
 

Old 03-14-2008, 01:47 AM   #2
Flooring Guru
 
Floorwizard's Avatar
 
Trade: Sales Manager
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 2,794

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


I wonder if temperature had anything to do with it?
any unusual conditions?

__________________
------------------------
"in 20 years you will regret more what you did not do than what you did"
Floorwizard is offline  
Old 03-14-2008, 05:51 AM   #3
Doer of Many Things!!!
 
gideond's Avatar
 
Trade: Paint and Floor Covering Retailer
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Staunton, VA
Posts: 767

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


No, everything was withing specifications. The first job was done in May during warm weather and in a newly constructed and fully heated building. This one was on 1/4" Bamply subfloor if I recall correctly. The second one was in an existing section of an older building also fully heated, this time on concrete. The second job was done in September so it was cooler overall but still in a heated environment.
gideond is offline  
Old 03-15-2008, 12:48 AM   #4
Flooring Guru
 
Floorwizard's Avatar
 
Trade: Sales Manager
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 2,794

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


Please keep us updated....
__________________
------------------------
"in 20 years you will regret more what you did not do than what you did"
Floorwizard is offline  
Old 03-15-2008, 11:01 AM   #5
Doer of Many Things!!!
 
gideond's Avatar
 
Trade: Paint and Floor Covering Retailer
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Staunton, VA
Posts: 767

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


The sales rep is coming Monday so we'll see what the verdict is. We've never heard of any issues with this stuff when heat welding but evidently something just isn't right with the chemical seam seal system.
gideond is offline  
Old 03-19-2008, 08:01 AM   #6
Doer of Many Things!!!
 
gideond's Avatar
 
Trade: Paint and Floor Covering Retailer
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Staunton, VA
Posts: 767

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


The sales rep didn't know what to say either. He is sending it to Armstrong to deal with. Here are some photos.

http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/g...int/Armstrong/
gideond is offline  
Old 03-19-2008, 10:50 AM   #7
Flooring Guru
 
Floorwizard's Avatar
 
Trade: Sales Manager
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 2,794

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


wierd stuff.....
__________________
------------------------
"in 20 years you will regret more what you did not do than what you did"
Floorwizard is offline  
Old 03-19-2008, 12:19 PM   #8
Pro
 
Mike Costello's Avatar
 
Trade: Flooring
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Portage County Ohio
Posts: 455
Send a message via Yahoo to Mike Costello

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


Could just be the photo angle but Im not seeing any seam sealer at all.


If youd like I could show your installer how to flare the outside corners of his cove base,lol
Mike Costello is offline  
Old 03-20-2008, 05:55 AM   #9
Doer of Many Things!!!
 
gideond's Avatar
 
Trade: Paint and Floor Covering Retailer
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Staunton, VA
Posts: 767

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


It was definitely seam sealed. We were there when that took place just to make sure this job was done correctly.

I know the cove base could use a bit of work. We are actually looking for a new installer but they are hard to come by around here. There are suddenly a horde of people that want to do ceramic but no one wants to touch carpet or vinyl anymore.
gideond is offline  
Old 03-20-2008, 09:00 AM   #10
Knowledge Factory
 
Floordude's Avatar
 
Trade: Certified Floorcovering Failure Investigator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,359

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


Too much open time on the adhesive, before getting the vinyl into it. Seen it many times. I bet you can still see trowel lines and very little transfer to the vinyl.
__________________
**Education is the key to success. Learn more, earn more.**
http://www.AustinFloorguy.com
Floordude is offline  
Old 03-20-2008, 09:10 AM   #11
Knowledge Factory
 
Floordude's Avatar
 
Trade: Certified Floorcovering Failure Investigator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,359

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


Quote:
Originally Posted by gideond View Post
We are actually looking for a new installer but they are hard to come by around here. There are suddenly a horde of people that want to do ceramic but no one wants to touch carpet or vinyl anymore.

It all has to do with a livable income/profit. Offer a much higher wage and health benefits to your employees, and you will see top shelf installation craftsmen, come out of the woodwork, just to be with you. Who & what dictates, your "going rate" Believe it or not, the cost of living has risen tremendously, yet "the going rate" the retail stores dictate as "this is what we pay our guys" has been staggnant for 20 years. Retailers have made flooring installation a commodity, instead of a respected craft.

Lots want to do ceramic, but the key to that is, do they know what they are doing, or are they just DIY'ers that wing it as they go???
__________________
**Education is the key to success. Learn more, earn more.**
http://www.AustinFloorguy.com
Floordude is offline  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:01 AM   #12
Doer of Many Things!!!
 
gideond's Avatar
 
Trade: Paint and Floor Covering Retailer
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Staunton, VA
Posts: 767

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


Believe me, I know about the cost of living. I've been trying to explain that to my boss for quite some time now. He is indeed of the mentality that "This is what we pay, take it or leave it." The installer we do have complain about the pay and frankly so do I!
gideond is offline  
Old 03-21-2008, 08:14 AM   #13
Paul
 
PrecisionFloors's Avatar
 
Trade: Hard Surface Flooring
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 3,320

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


Quote:
Originally Posted by gideond View Post
Believe me, I know about the cost of living. I've been trying to explain that to my boss for quite some time now. He is indeed of the mentality that "This is what we pay, take it or leave it." The installer we do have complain about the pay and frankly so do I!
Tell your boss that attitude will get him real far in this industry I bet the IRS and WC auditors would love to interview some of his "subs".

I'll agree with Floordude on the possible cause, its a common occurrence on this type of install. Another thing to question is if the proper sealer and sealing method was used as well as the cleanliness of the seam (contamination). Commercial resilient installation is a highly skilled trade that takes years of experience get to a point where one could be considered a true professional at it. It goes way beyond hand skills too....it takes a vast amount of knowledge of both product and approved installation methods to insure a job meets expectations with minimal call backs.
__________________
Precision Floors
(772) 237-9900
Tile, Hardwood, Laminate, and Resilient
Installation, Sales & Repair - "We do it right the FIRST time"
PrecisionFloors is offline  
Old 03-22-2008, 06:03 AM   #14
Doer of Many Things!!!
 
gideond's Avatar
 
Trade: Paint and Floor Covering Retailer
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Staunton, VA
Posts: 767

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


I know the correct seam sealer was used and it was used correctly. Now of the open time of the adhesive I just have the installer's word on that. We are sending him to Armstrong's 3 day installation course in April to make sure he has the ins and outs of commercial installation down. He's done quite a bit of this before but I don't think he's ever dealt with this large of an area with so many seams in it. We're going to get him heat weld certified since I think that is still the better method with this stuff, even though it doesn't look as good as seam sealing.
gideond is offline  
Old 04-01-2008, 02:00 PM   #15
Registered User
 
mark1915's Avatar
 
Trade: flooring
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


i would of seam welded this product !!!!
mark1915 is offline  
Old 05-21-2008, 08:19 AM   #16
Doer of Many Things!!!
 
gideond's Avatar
 
Trade: Paint and Floor Covering Retailer
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Staunton, VA
Posts: 767

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


New info. This is a letter we received today from our Armstrong sheet goods rep.

Quote:
TO ALL JJ Haines Commercial Flooring Customers


Subject: Armstrong Connection Corlon and S-761 Seam Adhesive

Recently there have been a handful of complaints on Connection Corlon installations using S-761 Seam Adhesive where the seams have opened up over time.

Although these complaints represent only a small percentage of the total amount of Connection Corlon installed, Armstrong has taken a proactive approach to investigate the cause of these complaints. The Armstrong technical and installation staff is working to determine whether the complaints are caused by specific site conditions, installation practices, product attributes, or some combination of these factors. At this stage, there is not a conclusive answer to the cause of the S-761 seam failures on Connection Corlon installations.

Given this, Armstrong has announced that effective immediately S-761 Seam Adhesive is not a recommended seaming option for Connection Corlon. We believe that this is in the best interests of our customers and our business until the cause of these failures is identified and corrected. At this time heat welding is the only seam option for Connection Corlon

We want to emphasize, this is in reference to Connection Corlon only, S-761 is still a seam option for all other recommended sheet products including Possibilities.

Please note that there have been no reports or complaints of S-761 Seam Adhesive failures with any other recommended products, and S-761 Seam Adhesive continues to be a recommended seaming option for those products -- and one in which we have full confidence.

Listed below, are the updated and current seaming options for Armstrong Commercial Flooring.
Despite what they say about it being fine on Possibilities I definitely don't trust it now.
gideond is offline  
Old 05-28-2008, 06:59 PM   #17
Carpetologist
 
csheafer's Avatar
 
Trade: Carpet, Vinyl & VCT Installation since 1977
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Neosho, MO
Posts: 19

Re: Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage


First, I would like to say that some here are ready to blame the installers once again for an issue that is as of yet unresolved.
Obviously, Armstrong IS having an issue with this problem since they have now pulled the sealer from their line on this product.
Since I have been installing Vinyl now for 3 decades, I have seen my fair share of failures due to either the product itself, the glue they recommended or the sealer.
They all have come a long way to be sure but that does not mean they in infallible and may come out with new lines of products that just do not work well under all circumstances.

I would bet that Armstrong will make this right.

csheafer is offline  


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Armstrong Woodhaven Ceiling Plank installation questions????? TurnkeyConst Finish Carpentry 1 03-13-2008 05:27 AM
Hanging Armstrong Silhouette grid jackofsome Commercial Construction 1 02-21-2008 07:49 AM
Armstrong Ultra SX-90 Leo D HVAC 4 02-14-2008 03:26 AM
Shrinkage! dkillianjr General Discussion 17 01-18-2008 11:54 PM
Armstrong or Goodman tasandage HVAC 2 11-08-2007 08:46 PM

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

I am a professional contractor
I am a DIY Homeowner
Drywall Talk is for
PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTORS ONLY!

At DrywallTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

Redirecing in 10 seconds
No Thanks
terms of service

Already Have an Account?