Armstrong Possibilites Shrinkage

gideond

We recently did two separate jobs with two different patterns of Armstrong Possibilities commercial sheet vinyl. We used the Seam Sealer method instead of heat welding, which is suppose to be fine with this product. A couple of months later both jobs are showing gaps at the seams as though the vinyl itself has shrunk. They aren't large gaps but they are big enough to notice. None are larger than 1/16" but they are a magnet for dirt which makes them very obvious. We went over both jobs with our installers (two different crews) and found no problems with the installation. It was all done per Armstrong's instructions. I've got a call in to our sales rep who will come to look at it next week but I'm looking for a little input from anyone else who has used this product who may have had similar issues.

Floorwizard

I wonder if temperature had anything to do with it?
any unusual conditions?

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gideond

No, everything was withing specifications. The first job was done in May during warm weather and in a newly constructed and fully heated building. This one was on 1/4" Bamply subfloor if I recall correctly. The second one was in an existing section of an older building also fully heated, this time on concrete. The second job was done in September so it was cooler overall but still in a heated environment.

Floorwizard

Please keep us updated....

__________________
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"in 20 years you will regret more what you did not do than what you did"

gideond

The sales rep is coming Monday so we'll see what the verdict is. We've never heard of any issues with this stuff when heat welding but evidently something just isn't right with the chemical seam seal system.

gideond

The sales rep didn't know what to say either. He is sending it to Armstrong to deal with. Here are some photos.

http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/g...int/Armstrong/

Floorwizard

wierd stuff.....

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"in 20 years you will regret more what you did not do than what you did"

Mike Costello

Could just be the photo angle but Im not seeing any seam sealer at all.


If youd like I could show your installer how to flare the outside corners of his cove base,lol

gideond

It was definitely seam sealed. We were there when that took place just to make sure this job was done correctly.

I know the cove base could use a bit of work. We are actually looking for a new installer but they are hard to come by around here. There are suddenly a horde of people that want to do ceramic but no one wants to touch carpet or vinyl anymore.

Floordude

Too much open time on the adhesive, before getting the vinyl into it. Seen it many times. I bet you can still see trowel lines and very little transfer to the vinyl.

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Floordude

It all has to do with a livable income/profit. Offer a much higher wage and health benefits to your employees, and you will see top shelf installation craftsmen, come out of the woodwork, just to be with you. Who & what dictates, your "going rate" Believe it or not, the cost of living has risen tremendously, yet "the going rate" the retail stores dictate as "this is what we pay our guys" has been staggnant for 20 years. Retailers have made flooring installation a commodity, instead of a respected craft.

Lots want to do ceramic, but the key to that is, do they know what they are doing, or are they just DIY'ers that wing it as they go???

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gideond

Believe me, I know about the cost of living. I've been trying to explain that to my boss for quite some time now. He is indeed of the mentality that "This is what we pay, take it or leave it." The installer we do have complain about the pay and frankly so do I!

PrecisionFloors

Tell your boss that attitude will get him real far in this industry I bet the IRS and WC auditors would love to interview some of his "subs".

I'll agree with Floordude on the possible cause, its a common occurrence on this type of install. Another thing to question is if the proper sealer and sealing method was used as well as the cleanliness of the seam (contamination). Commercial resilient installation is a highly skilled trade that takes years of experience get to a point where one could be considered a true professional at it. It goes way beyond hand skills too....it takes a vast amount of knowledge of both product and approved installation methods to insure a job meets expectations with minimal call backs.

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gideond

I know the correct seam sealer was used and it was used correctly. Now of the open time of the adhesive I just have the installer's word on that. We are sending him to Armstrong's 3 day installation course in April to make sure he has the ins and outs of commercial installation down. He's done quite a bit of this before but I don't think he's ever dealt with this large of an area with so many seams in it. We're going to get him heat weld certified since I think that is still the better method with this stuff, even though it doesn't look as good as seam sealing.

mark1915

i would of seam welded this product !!!!

gideond

New info. This is a letter we received today from our Armstrong sheet goods rep.

Despite what they say about it being fine on Possibilities I definitely don't trust it now.

csheafer

First, I would like to say that some here are ready to blame the installers once again for an issue that is as of yet unresolved.
Obviously, Armstrong IS having an issue with this problem since they have now pulled the sealer from their line on this product.
Since I have been installing Vinyl now for 3 decades, I have seen my fair share of failures due to either the product itself, the glue they recommended or the sealer.
They all have come a long way to be sure but that does not mean they in infallible and may come out with new lines of products that just do not work well under all circumstances.

I would bet that Armstrong will make this right.