Acclimation Trouble... This is beating me up. - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

fixitpete · 05-02-2009, 08:45 AM

Ok. It has been about 2 months since we put down StegoWrap 15 on the crawl space and poured a 4" slab over crawl. The good part is the crawl is nice and dry and the condensation on the pipes below, etc. is gone. Really is a much nicer, cleaner and drier environment.

Problem is I can NOT get the moisture reading of the sub-floor to go down below 13%. It is around 13%-16% depending on the location (for the most part, closer to exterior walls it is 16%, and more centrally it is 13%).

The flooring material has been in the house for about 6 months now -- in the original boxes, stacked 2" off the floor in a tic-tac-toe board pattern (so air can circulate around the boxes (but remember, the planks (3/4" x 3-1/4" Braz. Cherry) are STILL in their boxes, strapped shut). The material reads around 6%-7% for the pieces I pull from a box that is open, and The mterial that has been out of the box (just sitting on top of the box is around 8%.

To give you more information, framing is reading around 8% so that jives with the 8% reading I'm getting from the flooring material that has been set out of the box...

I have Aquabar-B for as the underlayment, but I know wide planks like this are prone to issues if things aren't done right.

Any help would be HUGE.

Thanks,
Pete

the big 12 inch · 05-02-2009, 11:02 AM

You need to provide much more info to give you sound advice...is this new const or old?what state are you in?is the house on an incline?near water?are there houses nearby that you can access to see if they have had moisture issues?how high is the subfloor from the crawlspace?is the HVAC system running?has al the interior paint complete?local info for your area is the best way to go...hope that helps...good luck..

Floordude · 05-02-2009, 02:42 PM

You need to run dehumidification in the crawl space, after it is sealed shut.

fixitpete · 05-02-2009, 09:33 PM

You need to provide much more info to give you sound advice...is this new const or old?

OLD

what state are you in?

NJ

is the house on an incline?

FLAT GRADE

near water?

YES IT IS WATERFRONT, AND ABOUT 4FT. ABOVE SEALEVEL.

are there houses nearby that you can access to see if they have had moisture issues?

ALL HOUSES HERE HAVE MOISTURE ISSUES SINCE WE ARE SURROUNDED BY WATER ON THREE SIDES. I HAVE AMONG THE MOST DRY AND BEST SLABBED.

how high is the subfloor from the crawlspace?

28"

is the HVAC system running?

SOMEWHAT. IN THE WINTER IT IS KEPT 53-F, IN THE SUMMER IT CAN REACH 100. IT IS COOLED BEFORE IT IS OCCUPIED SO THE TEMP SWING CAN RANGE FROM 50-F TO 100-F

has al the interior paint complete?

YES

local info for your area is the best way to go...hope that helps...good luck..

THANKS...
No offense, I used caps so you could see my answers verses your questions.

Dehumidifier in the crawl is not an option since this is a flood area and by the time you dry it out, it will flood again and the cycle will never end.

Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Pete

P.S. Should I pull the flooring from the boxes and spread them out (rack them)? What is the best way to get that flooring to the same moisture level as the subfloor?

Floordude · 05-03-2009, 10:00 AM

There are regions, that wood floors do not work.

There are homes where wood flooring is not going to work. Since you cannot bring the jobsite into the required conditions, for the wood flooring to perform flawlessly, because the budget will not allow it, this is one of those homes where wood flooring is not going to work.

Ever wonder why tropical and arid regions, seem to have ceramic tile everywhere???

There is a reason for this. Some learn it the hard way. Some learn this from the tens of thousands of years, of humans using wood.

PrecisionFloors · 05-03-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floordude

There are regions, that wood floors do not work.

There are homes where wood flooring is not going to work. Since you cannot bring the jobsite into the required conditions, for the wood flooring to perform flawlessly, because the budget will not allow it, this is one of those homes where wood flooring is not going to work.

Ever wonder why tropical and arid regions, seem to have ceramic tile everywhere???

There is a reason for this. Some learn it the hard way. Some learn this from the tens of thousands of years, of humans using wood.

Why wouldn't MVP work?

fixitpete · 05-03-2009, 02:21 PM

What is MVP.

I understand about the regions, etc.

However, almost every home here has the exact flooring that I am looking to install. However, I just want to make sure I hedge the bet even better.

Furthermore, most of the homes doe NOT have a vapor barrier in the crawl OR a 4" slab.

I'll keep working it -- if anyone has any ideas, please help.

Thanks,
Pete

PrecisionFloors · 05-03-2009, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fixitpete

What is MVP.

I understand about the regions, etc.

However, almost every home here has the exact flooring that I am looking to install. However, I just want to make sure I hedge the bet even better.

Furthermore, most of the homes doe NOT have a vapor barrier in the crawl OR a 4" slab.

I'll keep working it -- if anyone has any ideas, please help.

Thanks,
Pete

http://www.bostik-us.com/markets/flo...fault.html#mvp

Scroll down , it's Bostik's Moisture Vapor Protection. It is a trowel on moisture barrier.

fixitpete · 05-03-2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrecisionFloors

http://www.bostik-us.com/markets/flo...fault.html#mvp

Scroll down , it's Bostik's Moisture Vapor Protection. It is a trowel on moisture barrier.

Subfloor is is 3/4"x2" T&G... I may call the mfg. just to pick their brains. Right now I'm leaning on "racking" all the lumber to get it closer to sub-floor moisture reading and going from there...

the big 12 inch · 05-04-2009, 06:46 AM

If this house is unocupied at times and you have these wide interior temp swings and the fact that you are near water, this is like the perfect storm affect for wood floors to fail...Under these conditions theres not much you can do if the house is not maintained at a constant temp and humidity level..good luck..

fixitpete · 05-04-2009, 07:23 PM

I keep hearing it "can't be done" yet there have been houses here for 90 years that have "done it" and they look perfect.

Doh.

ian@prosource · 05-05-2009, 09:49 AM

On paper, your project will not work, however with the right precautions things can be worked out but as with things like this there is no fool proof answer.

My old cottage was built with no damp course and the water table was 2 ft below ground and we lived in a extreme flood plain.

I used a cement based damp proof membraine to seal the floors & walls. this membraine was designed to withstand a 6'6 (2m)head of water pressure.

i had a survey carried out on areas i had treated & not treated and the treated areas tested dry compared to very wet for the non treated areas.

i was then able to cover the membraine with two coats of smoothing compound and drywall the walls. this left me a very dry waterproof area in which i was able to install an type of flooring.

However do remember it is important to maintaing a steady room temp & humidty levels after the job is finished because the floors & walls can no longer breathe into the room as they are sealed.

This type of thing may work for you, but no one is going to give any cast iron warranty for you. As they say, you pay your money and you take your chance.

Treat your area as a swimming pool, but instead of sealing the pool/walls to keep the water in, you are sealing them to keep the water out.

astor · 05-05-2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fixitpete

I keep hearing it "can't be done" yet there have been houses here for 90 years that have "done it" and they look perfect.

Doh.

YES,It can be done and you can do it!, I have supplied brazilian cherry flooring(rift-sawn) and some others so many years to a contractor in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware, who builts homes near water line ( close as 10 ft) and 4-5 ft above the water.
Looks like you are using same tech's and taking all precaution steps,that will be ok.BTW, the houses there 90 years does not have Brazilian Cherry, more likely oak

fixitpete · 05-06-2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astor

YES,It can be done and you can do it!, I have supplied brazilian cherry flooring(rift-sawn) and some others so many years to a contractor in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware, who builts homes near water line ( close as 10 ft) and 4-5 ft above the water.
Looks like you are using same tech's and taking all precaution steps,that will be ok.BTW, the houses there 90 years does not have Brazilian Cherry, more likely oak

Some have oak, maple, a few of the grander homes have walnut and cherry (not braz. cherry) -- and they all look wonderful. None of these homes were built with air conditioning and they were all "buttoned up" for the winter months, etc.

I know it can be done, I just know you can't do a slap-job and (as you said) I just want to take every precaution. The next step is I want to insulate the block wall with a closed cell T&G board in the crawl to help limit moisture even more... granted when it floods, it won't matter, but at least it will get dryer more quickly.

Thanks,
Pete

Floordude · 05-06-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fixitpete

Problem is I can NOT get the moisture reading of the sub-floor to go down below 13%. It is around 13%-16% depending on the location (for the most part, closer to exterior walls it is 16%, and more centrally it is 13%).

The material that has been out of the box (just sitting on top of the box is around 8%.

To give you more information, framing is reading around 8% so that jives with the 8% reading I'm getting from the flooring material that has been set out of the box...

So, whatcha gonna do? I don't see a 2% difference, happening any time soon, with the flooring and subfloor.

Try asking this guy...
www.BrickmanConsulting.com Howard Brickman, will shoot you the straight answer.

fixitpete · 05-06-2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floordude

So, whatcha gonna do? I don't see a 2% difference, happening any time soon, with the flooring and subfloor.

Try asking this guy...
www.BrickmanConsulting.com Howard Brickman, will shoot you the straight answer.

Thanks for that link. I'll put a coherent eMail together for him and see where he takes it.

Almost everyone I've spoken to says I am *way* over thinking the whole thing... call me crazy, but I want it right.

Anyway, at this point, I'm going to do a few things.

1) Research pulling all pieces out of the box and racking them up to better acclimate (I have to think that they aren't going to acclimate as well in the box)(?). I don't know if this is a good idea or not.

2) I'm going to do a closed cell tongue and grove insulation on the crawl space interior block walls.

3) I'm going to get rid of all that horrible old-ass insulation that is in the joist down there.

In all honesty, I'm leaning toward doing the job in the warmer months as I would rather deal with some gaping issues when the flooring contracts in the cooler months than deal with buckling/expansion issues (if I do the job now while still cool). Either way I'll maintain a steady temp/humidty for several months after the work is done and gradually allow things to acclimate toward the "norm".

Aside from the usual, "it can't be done" routine... if it was a must-do... what would your ideas, thoughts, comments be?

Thanks,
Pete

fixitpete · 05-06-2009, 06:29 PM

Just sent him an email... I sure hope to hear back.

Thanks again,
Pete

naptown CR · 05-06-2009, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fixitpete

In all honesty, I'm leaning toward doing the job in the warmer months as I would rather deal with some gaping issues when the flooring contracts in the cooler months than deal with buckling/expansion issues (if I do the job now while still cool). Either way I'll maintain a steady temp/humidty for several months after the work is done and gradually allow things to acclimate toward the "norm".

Aside from the usual, "it can't be done" routine... if it was a must-do... what would your ideas, thoughts, comments be?

Thanks,
Pete

What about crawl space ventilation If you have been doing your moisture readings recently ( it's been very warm in maryland) and you are over a sealed crawl space with no ventilation there may be a condensation issue on the top of the subfloor due to a cooler crawlspace and a warmer and more humid room temperature that may be throwing the moisture meter off if you are reading on the top of the subfloor. Check temperatures and ventilation both can cause this. Also check moisture on the subfloor in the crawl it may be lower that on top due to lack of condeensation.

I agree with waiting for summer better to shrink than buckle.

fixitpete · 05-06-2009, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naptown CR

What about crawl space ventilation If you have been doing your moisture readings recently ( it's been very warm in maryland) and you are over a sealed crawl space with no ventilation there may be a condensation issue on the top of the subfloor due to a cooler crawlspace and a warmer and more humid room temperature that may be throwing the moisture meter off if you are reading on the top of the subfloor. Check temperatures and ventilation both can cause this. Also check moisture on the subfloor in the crawl it may be lower that on top due to lack of condeensation.

I agree with waiting for summer better to shrink than buckle.

Good thoughts. Actually the vents are still closed for the season and will be opened this weekend. I'm going to take readings from the bottom side of the subfloor as well as the joists.

Thanks again!

Pete

neolitic · 05-06-2009, 07:40 PM

Could you do a genuine continuous
vapor barrier on the bottom of the joist?
Tidally flooded crawls are not
part of my universe, but damp insulation
in the joist bays can not be good.
Out of the box is the way to go IMO.