3/4 T&G Hardwood floor underlayment options - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

jdghandyman · 10-07-2008, 03:49 PM

Been awhile since I laid my last t&g 3/4 hardwood floor. Subfloor is 3/4" plywood with finished basement underneath. Client bought Bolivian Rosewood (very hard) 3 1/4" t&g planks. Dealer also sold her thick roll of underlayment like the kind you put underneath floating floors (1/8" pad material with attached vapor barrior) & said it would help with sound absorbtion and warmth on cold New England mornings.

In the past, I used rosin paper or 15lb felt over plywood subfloor for 3/4" nailed down hardwood floors. Is this thick underlayment something that is used these days under 3/4" hardware, or was the dealer misleading my client?

Thanks for your input!

Floordude · 10-07-2008, 04:34 PM

How handy are you, anyway?

I hope you have read NOFMA standards, for installation of wood flooring as a fasten down method.

Have the wood manufacturer fax you their stance on the subject.

I'll tell you right now, if there is a problem down the road, and I come to inspect it, your going to be eating a lot of wood with that crap under it.

Asphalt impregnated construction felt.

jdghandyman · 10-07-2008, 06:03 PM

Floordude;
I have read NOFMA standards and I'm fairly handy (although my back gives out much quicker than it used to :>)). I was asking because I never heard of putting this thick underlayment stuff down under hardwood (over plywood & joists subfloor) and don't want to have a floor I install fail.

Thanks for the tip to call flooring manufacturer.

jdghandyman · 10-08-2008, 02:36 PM

Spoke to the manufacturer (Bellawood). They said there is no major issue with using the "padded underlayment with vapor barrier" that is designed to go under laminate floors. (and no impact on the warranty). As an underlayment for 3/4" hardwood nailed down floor, the sound deadening and soft/cushiony properties are potential advantages over 15lb felt or rosin paper while disadvantage is potential for squeaks as the hardwood planks compress the underlayment and pull on the tongue nails when you walk on it.

Learn something every day.

Mike Costello · 10-08-2008, 02:54 PM

I can also add you will be fighting to get the rows together.

The nailed row will sink into the pad making the next row a bear to knock in

jdghandyman · 10-08-2008, 03:26 PM

And the added 1/8 inch in height messes up transitions to adjacent 3/4" floors (or at least limits your options).
Thanks for the feedback. The pad underlayment is history. Sometimes, the old ways are still the best.

Cdat · 10-08-2008, 05:49 PM

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

jamestrd · 10-29-2008, 08:51 PM

save yourself

don install Bellawood..its garbage.. there will be overwood issues, mad milling, gaps etc..

nothing will go worng with the padding, but if resiliency was a request, simple cork underlayment will do the trick.. comes in rolls averages about .60 a sf and floors are nicey nice and not so noisy.. great sound deadener,,

you will lose money on the job, dont do it.(bellawood that is)

Floordude · 10-29-2008, 10:03 PM

Red flag #1
Bellawood

Red flag #2
You believed what Lumber Liquidators told you(did you get it in writing?? Hehehehe!)

Red Flag #3
It has a moisture barrier, not a breathable moisture retarder and your going over a wood substrate(can you say dry rot and mold issues with the substrate)

Red Flag #4
Bellawood

koop · 08-05-2009, 09:26 PM

Deck Armor's characteristics seem like they would make it an ideal underlayment. It breathes, it's tough, only down side I see is the cost.

the big 12 inch · 08-06-2009, 06:55 AM

Bellawood not good?....But...but...Bob Vila says its the best!!..And HE knows everthang!!

AcademyHardwood · 08-06-2009, 04:46 PM

The roll of underlayment that was sold by the dealer is actually helpful in keeping harmful moisture and water away from the Hardwood.

woodie · 08-11-2009, 10:08 AM

I understand the need for good underlayment when installing hardwood flooring. My question is more directed to the materials used and I'd like to offer an alternative solution at a very competitive price.

Rosin Paper of today is merely a recycled fiberous paper designed to guard against dirt particles and air. In some cases it offers minimal noise deadening advantage. For what ever reason manufacturers still use the term Rosin to describe this product (originally paper was coated with rosin to provide a good moisure barrier), unfortunately that process is no longer used. Now for my question about rosin paper...if there were a rosin like paper product (coated one side with latex) which would offer a better/true moisture barrier, excellant air/dust control, adequate sound deadening and it was available up to 53" wide and priced similar to todays red rosin paper...IS THIS SOMETHING THAT THE FLOORING INSTALLERS WOULD EMBRACE? The only downside is that the available color is not red but brown, blue and yellow. The product is awesome and I have an endless supply and need to move it.

Floordude · 08-12-2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodie

I understand the need for good underlayment when installing hardwood flooring. My question is more directed to the materials used and I'd like to offer an alternative solution at a very competitive price.

Rosin Paper of today is merely a recycled fiberous paper designed to guard against dirt particles and air. In some cases it offers minimal noise deadening advantage. For what ever reason manufacturers still use the term Rosin to describe this product (originally paper was coated with rosin to provide a good moisure barrier), unfortunately that process is no longer used. Now for my question about rosin paper...if there were a rosin like paper product (coated one side with latex) which would offer a better/true moisture barrier, excellant air/dust control, adequate sound deadening and it was available up to 53" wide and priced similar to todays red rosin paper...IS THIS SOMETHING THAT THE FLOORING INSTALLERS WOULD EMBRACE? The only downside is that the available color is not red but brown, blue and yellow. The product is awesome and I have an endless supply and need to move it.

Moisture barriers are fine for going over concrete, but never over wood.
Dry rot. The basement needs to be conditioned to lower humidity levels.
Crawl spaces need moisture barriers over the soil. Good ventilation, or sealed and dehumidified.

Asphalt impregnated construction felt, as a moisture retarder.

AcademyHardwood · 08-28-2009, 03:29 PM

It will help you with sound absorption, but im not sure about the "cold new england mornings" part..

astor · 09-02-2009, 10:33 PM

I have just finished a project from hell..The house is 12 years old builder's model home with 3/4" solid white oak installed over 3/4" ply. One corner in the dining room and another beside the fireplace is moving up and down when stepped on. There is no indication of water damage or cupping.When question the homeowner, found out that there were some water leakage around both places years ago(DR-3 years ago, Fireplace 6 years ago).The customer believes that was minor and "should have been dried by this time".And adds that there were no cupping of the wood at that time.Measured with moisture meter;15% where the floor is moving, the rest is 8%.Despite that no cupping.
Ok, the only way to find out is surgery;cut out 6 ft piece and surprise;felt on top,6 mil poly underneath and the ply(well i would not call it ply anymore)and 6 mil poly over slab.the water traveled though the walls and found it's way to the ply and stuck there, the poly under and over did not allow it going anywhere and rotten the ply over the years,taking out about 120 sq.ft,we found rotten ply some places just the dust of ply,in some places cake like mushy black wood substance with mold and fungus.Same thing around the fireplace!
The original floor contractor might be thinking to do a great(!) job by laying 6 mil poly over the ply to give extra protection, but actually ended up with mess.
If he did not lay the poly over ply, the water damage was going to the wood flooring and homeowner would replaced it.But doing that way, he actually conceal the water damage and forced homeowner live with mold and fungus all these years.
This is the reason,I prefer using 6 mil poly over the slab, then ply and Aquabar over the ply.
I will post pictures soon.

floorinstall · 09-03-2009, 12:57 PM

I had the same conversation with a contractor that wanted me to lay poly over a plywood sub floor and install 8' wide reclaimed heart pine over it. About 7,000 sq ft. It was a 3 million dollar home. The house is next to the water in the Florida panhandle. I refused and he had another contractor install the floor and I lost the future work from the contractor. The year before I had done about $70,000 with him. About three years later, the floors had to be removed and all of the sub floors replaced and mold remediation. This also included the removal of all the custom built cabinets in the kitchen. the contractor was sued for the entire cost and lost. He is now out of business along with the flooring contractor who did the work. At the time I was really pissed about losing his work but now I am glad I followed the NOFMA guidelines and common sense. As a foot note the flooring contractor had a liability waiver signed by the GC and the judge could not have cared less.